My town has really changed

[CatbellsOnTheSeashore]

In a confusing and not very pleasant way.

It was gradually changing for the worse before covid, but the pandemic seemed to accelerate it, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed anything like this.

It became more insular whilst more populated, the population increased quite a bit over the past 5 yrs. More and more dereliction, low council maintenance and an influx of troubled people housed around the town centre, which is now a no-go zone. Areas surrounding have steadily grown worse also, as it seems to be spilling out.

What does feel really different is that there are now lots of groups of men, hanging around drinking or sat on pavements together (not begging). Drugs took over the local nature paths and canal walks so now there are large groups of people out of their heads lying on old sofas at the locks, it's really grim. Women who used to cycle and run in these areas have more or less moved elsewhere or stopped.

More and more standard sized houses in low to middle income areas are becoming HMO's, yet with poor refuse organisation and not enough parking. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are literally trails of dog shit in the streets in many areas, too, which pretty much hangs in the air and the place stinks. That, and skunk.

We live in a decent part of town but it is coming closer, and I only have that perk due to inheriting my parents bungalow. More and more people are moving out.

On a walk to Sainsbury's yesterday two guys were holding onto a sign pole hovering over a bin. As I passed by one of them vomited into the bin and then spat/gobbed an inch from my feet - he didn't notice me particularly, but it was quite sudden or I'd have given them a wide berth.
This isn't unusual now.

I know people usually blame the cost of living and covid, etc, but this was definitely on the rise before. There is far more noise pollution as more buildings go up, usually industrial, and the roads are a nightmare. Infrastructure for actual people is decreasing.
That said, I don't think most of these people were thriving before, so it isn't a sudden change. It is as if a new kind of culture is growing, that doesn't care a damn about anything. Everything is vandalised or shat on. More and more windows are broken in properties close to the town centre, and I doubt most of these people were thriving before the pandemic hit.

Is this bad luck or is anything like it happening elsewhere?
We are definitely looking to move away.

what did people expect was going to happen when we started telling people they couldn’t be proud of their country? It’s no surprise they lose pride and act in disrespectful ways

There's some truth in this IMO.

It's a bit tricky to have respect for authority when our leaders don't - partygate anyone?

Unfortunately we now live in a world where the monied classes can buy "justice" which is an increasingly nebulous concept, and the poor are always used as an example of fecklessness even when the system has blatantly screwed them over.

In addition, plenty of people who have tried hard to get ahead fall foul of corrupt market practise and eventually give up hope.

Morals, principles and ethics make for a pretty lean diet.

I knew a homeless man, he used to visit my workplace, I saw him sleeping on the streets. His family had done all they could to help him, but they couldn't have him living at home, however were still in contact with him. It's not a question of "allowing" someone to live on the streets either - how do you stop an adult? Mostly these are people with alcohol/drug/mental health issues. You must live a very sheltered life if you can't understand this.

I’ve noticed this. I watched shameless season one the other week and commented to a friend how clean and tidy the streets look compared to now. A friend laughed at me, then watched it and agreed with me!

I'm Truro, which used to be lovely 20 years ago. It's been going gradually downhill for a while but the last 5 or 6 years, rapidly so. A bloke stopped in front of me and pissed against a wall the other day, full daylight and everything. It's so sad. I travel a lot and have noticed the decline everywhere. The trains too! Absolute cess-pits.

Oh it’s been a long time since I watched shameless. But yes I think there was less fly tipping then and a sense of community funny that.

Well yes, huge inequality is also a big part of the problem. And the corruption at the top of our society impedes efforts to improve things. And there are doubtless far too many people living in deprivation.

But I don't really agree that many British people are in absolute poverty. We live in a society with free education and healthcare, minimum wage, employment rights. Anyone can get educated and get work and make a living for themselves. If they don't earn much they get topped up with benefits to the point where they can have a nice lifestyle by world standards or compared to the UK 50 years ago. The issue seems to be that (some) people don't have the mental capacity to manage money or to improve their lot. It's not like India for example where the poorest people will always be poor no matter how hard they work.

People always want more than they have, that's the human condition, but really what's lacking is community structures and a normally functioning society , not a lack of money at the level of individual households.

Screens probably have a lot to answer for

The community spirit on shameless surprised me too.

Something has gone badly wrong in the U.K.

If you haven’t watched it for a while it is eye opening. Especially if you watched it first time round.

I feel it’s especially bad in the north. Leeds city centre is going the same way as Bradford, which is genuinely terrifying at times. People shooting fireworks at each other and all sorts. Leeds was a really friendly and vibrant city when I moved there for uni 20 years ago.

Exactly! And then the people who are primariily affected by immigration - those in working class areas -are further disenfranchised when their frustration of not being listen to boils over. All the do gooders are safe away from it all. It’s only when people are personally impacted do they start questioning the narrative.

A society needs a single culture as its focus. For Britain it has for centuries been Christianity (even if you don’t believe in God” and a proud history of strength in the world. Anyone coming here, of any race can integrate by buying into the culture of the country they have chosen to call home. We have a strong history of welcoming people who buy into our values. But now we are expected to welcome ideologies and values that directly jar with those country’s and people are fed up of it. Fed up of having something the want to be proud of and are proud of by idiots who are too stupid or blinkered to see the fall out over their drowning in about multiculturalism. We’ve tried it, and it’s failed- spectacularly. Anyone of any race can intergrate into British culture and that is what our focus needs to be on.

I'm sure this is the case in some places. But in many of these northern and Midlands towns, most people are white British and immigrants are not numerous enough to be causing any problems .

This is what Liverpool was like 25 years ago. It's much better now.

I agree completely with this. I think being judged or the fear of being judged and shamed by your community was what kept a lot of stuff in check, including kids behaviour and parents keeping their kids in school etc.
I’m not saying we should go back to unmarried mothers homes or anything awful like that but being expected by your neighbours to be clean and sober and keep your kids in check and caring what they thought might improve things somewhat.

We should bombard parliament with video footage of all the dreadful things occurring in our home towns/areas

Someone on 30k pays 5k income tax and national insurance. Someone on 130k pays 49k income tax and national insurance.

The government spends on average 17k per person. As higher earners leave the UK we will have more problems funding the public sector.

Comments like yours aren't particularly helpful.

These are our sunlit uplands OP
We're getting exactly what we voted for.

It’s not much better here in the midlands. I used to go clubbing in Leeds, Manchester, London etc. I don’t think I would dare go now and I’m certainly not a shy wall flower. Walking through my small town at 5:30pm is enough to fill me with dread. Youths wearing covid masks on those stupid scooters. Drugs openly smoked and handed to buyers. Men hacking in the street, spitting everywhere. Groups of middle aged men hanging around like we did at 13 - really odd. Groups outside the 20 barber shops that have sprung up. Surely there is not enough hair to make 20 plus barbers a living in every town - they are known as money laundering places.

It is really grim. And it’s not due to people being poor. As I mentioned above rewatch shameless. Many people were poor in the 80s and 90s but it wasn’t like it is now. I lived in a few poor areas as a student and this is very different. I had friends who were very well off and friends on benefits who were like the families on shameless. But Neighbours knew each other and looked out for each other. Now it’s HMOs and overcrowding.

Immigration and it effects do need to be discussed. As does the cost of immigration on our culture and the £ which cannot be spent elsewhere.

Yes - Liverpool is probably still poorer and more deprived than most other places but that depressing sense of decline isn't there - it feels more like somewhere that's on the up. The capital of culture whenever that was did a lot of good and then things like Eurovision last year.

Yes but no one earns 130k in a vacuum. There will be a whole host of low paid workers supporting their job, as well as the infrastructure and services such as roads, policing, refuse collection, telecommunications etc that most jobs rely on in some capacity, again provided by low paid workers.

It’s not about individual towns though - it’s about the narrative..that white working class men are seen as the bottom of the pile. It’s about the multicultural narrative and the whole British history is evil.

tradition is what is important especially in many working class areas, where often generations of a family have lived. It’s no coincidence that these areas see a massive rise in Patriotism- it’s strongly identifying with their stability, which is their heritage and their sense of belonging. Taking this away leaves people adrift.

If politicians want to stop the rot they need to understand what people want, they want a country to be proud of. To do that it that country needs an identity, a sense of what is right and wrong people sharing the same basic view on life, understanding the same reference points. Politicians need to accept multiculturalism doesn’t work but everyone can integrate into a single culture. We need to move away from this narrative of celebrating differences and instead seek out and celebrate our commonalities.

Alot of the problem is the inability to do anything about other people. In the 60s the police could take the loca thug to the station and give him a thumping. I could grab a troublemaking child and give them a severe talking to. Now do anything to anyone and you will be arrested for threatening behaviour or seen on cctv being aggressive ( in response to lout peeing in the street or whatever) and be reported to the police.
I think human rights laws have backfired.

@CandyMaker , yes, I agree that house prices need to drop to be in proportion to earnings. But between 2008 and 2022 anyone with savings was losing money if they kept it in the bank at 0.1% interest rates, so they cast about for investments that paid something rather than nothing. So they bought BTL properties, and rare car bodies, and number plates, just to keep pace with inflation.

I don't think housing costs are going to fall at all as long as the population is allowed to increase. I also don't have a clue how to turn the tide. And frankly, I love my house; over 27 years of living in it, and maintaining/improving it, a little bit at a time as it could be afforded, it is exactly what I want. And it seems to be fairly close to what most ordinary people aspire to own when they get to where they'd define moderate success, that they can envisage buying for their family if they work hard and are a little lucky. It isn't a swanky mansion, just a pleasant four bed detached house. It's not that special, although it does have a great view, but it's spacious, there's a bit of garden (very steep though) and it's a good house for a family with two or three children in a safe area with reasonable schools. When did that turn into something only a person relocating from London could afford?

I think that is the real issue. Almost nobody living in our area with an ordinary job paid less than an NHS consultant could afford it. I am not going to pretend that I would take less to sell it to a local. We shall sell it because we should downsize for common sense reasons, like age and gardening. But I am never going to buy a rabbit hutch in a geriatric apartment block.either so we're struggling to work out the way forward. Meanwhile we still love our house.

This isn't about 'not being able to be proud of the country etc' - some of the biggest flag waving areas also have some of the dumpiest places- and often not particularly huge amounts of immigrants either to blame it on

I have no problem with people saying there are issues with integration in some areas but we need to accept we have huge amounts of white British born losers who really don't give a shit about their surroundings, don't value 'hard work' , are more than happy to screw the state or flytip and then like to point the finger at everyone 'not like them' and say someone like Farage has all the answers- whereas it's lot more complicated than that -

Unfortunately those who are all too ready to go one about human rights. Never seem. To want to talk about their responsibilities.

I also think we have glorified stupidity. Look at the shit on TV these days! Rather than read a book we’re encouraged to watch some random see if they can eat a kangaroos dick on tv.. Try and have an intelligent conversation, you’re stuck up.

We need to start celebrating intelligence, encourage meaningful debate (rather than shut it down).

You don’t understand how this flows through though. Many of those areas are the most traditional. We need to start saying how proud we are of Britain and its past. How it’s one of the best countries in the world. We need to stop disenfranchising white men who are working class