My town has really changed

[CatbellsOnTheSeashore]

In a confusing and not very pleasant way.

It was gradually changing for the worse before covid, but the pandemic seemed to accelerate it, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed anything like this.

It became more insular whilst more populated, the population increased quite a bit over the past 5 yrs. More and more dereliction, low council maintenance and an influx of troubled people housed around the town centre, which is now a no-go zone. Areas surrounding have steadily grown worse also, as it seems to be spilling out.

What does feel really different is that there are now lots of groups of men, hanging around drinking or sat on pavements together (not begging). Drugs took over the local nature paths and canal walks so now there are large groups of people out of their heads lying on old sofas at the locks, it's really grim. Women who used to cycle and run in these areas have more or less moved elsewhere or stopped.

More and more standard sized houses in low to middle income areas are becoming HMO's, yet with poor refuse organisation and not enough parking. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are literally trails of dog shit in the streets in many areas, too, which pretty much hangs in the air and the place stinks. That, and skunk.

We live in a decent part of town but it is coming closer, and I only have that perk due to inheriting my parents bungalow. More and more people are moving out.

On a walk to Sainsbury's yesterday two guys were holding onto a sign pole hovering over a bin. As I passed by one of them vomited into the bin and then spat/gobbed an inch from my feet - he didn't notice me particularly, but it was quite sudden or I'd have given them a wide berth.
This isn't unusual now.

I know people usually blame the cost of living and covid, etc, but this was definitely on the rise before. There is far more noise pollution as more buildings go up, usually industrial, and the roads are a nightmare. Infrastructure for actual people is decreasing.
That said, I don't think most of these people were thriving before, so it isn't a sudden change. It is as if a new kind of culture is growing, that doesn't care a damn about anything. Everything is vandalised or shat on. More and more windows are broken in properties close to the town centre, and I doubt most of these people were thriving before the pandemic hit.

Is this bad luck or is anything like it happening elsewhere?
We are definitely looking to move away.

The number of street homeless has significantly increased since austerity. So it obviously does have at least a casual impact.

If I can feel angry, in my MC way, about wealth inequalities overall and funding inequalities N vs S, I'm sure that those people who don't have resources behind them are going to feel very angry indeed.

The "no-one trusts anyone anymore" seems to have a parallel on MN, with people not answering their doors, not wanting to interact with anyone except their "own little family" (which doesn't include parents and PILSs and a few select friends, a general shrinking away from wider families and local communities.

I'm blaming immigration - in a large town near me there are gangs of men who hang about all day and will follow you and shout at you if you are a lone woman.
I sat in the Doctors today for nearly 2 hours - only one English named person was called.
The British social contracts are being destroyed. For example, just queuing for a bus - in the past a queue was formed, today it's everyone for themselves and if you queue you are likely to be last.

@HPFA yep and we have groups such as 'the taxpayers alliance' ( or should it be called the 'don't want to pay tax alliance) a few years ago going on about roads and rail and health etc - and any money going into them - presumably none of them ever have use for roads and rail and health etc. then we have fishermen and farmers going on about Brexit - so they get Brexit and don't much like it - because they were only thinking of cutting off any competition , not about 'markets' etc and the difficulties in fresh food and export. Many people just don't think of wider implications or balance economically- be it right wing or the complete opposite. They just think with their wallet or ethical stance that week and bugger the long term implications for the vast majority.

Especially if there are younger children at home having to put up with the chaos, too. I know of two families experiencing this; the older brother is welcome back at home if he gives up drugs, but he doesn't want to. Heartbreaking for the parents but eventually it's not fair on other children in the household (Christmas and birthday presents sold, money stolen etc.).

Would the predominantly young male asylum seekers actually want to work in care homes and would you want a reluctant worker (possibly with little spoken English) looking after vulnerable adults?

I'm starting to think the Chinese government might have a point with the whole social credit system.

One of my kids is studying politics at university and always says this! It’s slightly tongue in cheek, but they think there is no other way to deal with some behaviours you see now.

@Toseland that may be an issue in certain areas but there are many areas where it isn't really in the mix- here in Bath the issues are mainly white pure British druggies and homeless gravitating here

@CatbellsOnTheSeashore I also grew up with a very positive view of immigration, with lots of immigrating and emigrating in my family, but I think it's one thing when you have degree-educated people coming in to do skilled, needed jobs, who have a similar social and cultural attitude to communal spaces, women, drinking etc; but when I speak to people in places negatively affected by immigration, it's much more large groups of men who have come over from Eastern Europe to do (still much-needed) manual or building work, and don't necessarily have the women and children with them who might mitigate the drinking, spitting, sitting around on sofas on the riverbank kind of behaviour. They don't (generalising, of course) particularly want to help out at Scouts or the local food bank or work at the local corner shop so they get to know people and become invested in the area.

As for locals, it's political choices that have trickled down to social behaviour. If school can't cope with you because of funding cuts, if your parents' quality of life is visibly declining in front of you because of benefit cuts or unemployment, if your medical needs can't get met by an overworked GP, if your local area doesn't have Third Spaces you can share with other people in your community to get to know them, if you don't have organisations like churches or mosques to embed positive social behaviour, if drugs and drink are cheap and there's nothing else to do - why wouldn't you just get wasted? And once you're hooked on that, why would you care about what your space is like? Then it becomes a vicious circle.

I also think rhetoric about our collapsing country doesn't help. If we think something is hopeless, we give up and focus on how it's collapsing; if we think something is broken, we may be able to find the impetus to try and fix it. As it is, everything is broken right now: politics, economics, employment, education, healthcare, trade, the environment, food systems, the media, the internet... I'm curious to see how we can turn things around.

@Terrribletwos we already have very reluctant workers looking after vulnerable people.

I’ve noticed similar in my town and the issue is that the more troublemakers are out and about using public spaces for criminal and antisocial pastimes, the fewer pro social people will feel comfortable outdoors. As you said, women feel unsafe to run or cycle alone or walk with their children if people are under the influence and spitting and causing issues and therefore the antisocial element can easily start dominating the public places and the town gets even worse.

I think all we can do is make a point of continuing to go out and about and refusing to avoid certain areas etc and instead really up standards for everyone. Of course these are usually people with problems of their own but they don’t get to intimidate other members of the community. If you see criminal behaviour, report to the police, press for more patrols if it’s concentrated to a certain area. If you see antisocial behaviour get on to the council or the landlord, report things. Make things difficult for the antisocial element, we all have to adhere to certain standards and their behaviour is not acceptable in polite society so they should know about it.

Some of the loss of manufacturing-based jobs didn't just result in factory closures and job losses. There were supporting cultures based around industries too. Sometimes social clubs for workers, Christmas parties for kids, Unions less obviously political and more supportive of individuals, sports teams etc. I'm not being rose-tinted glasses about it, I'm sure it was bloody hard for many. The jobs created a culture alongside them and there were more ways to stay occupied, stay paid, and more people to get involved to say 'Listen lad, you can do better than this'.

I live in a village of 3,000 people. Our young people are lovely here, never any trouble not even mischief.

There are many factors apart from a lot of pupils having to learn the British way but I'm old enough to say we haven't benefitted from mass immigration. It should have been selective immigration.

I started reading an article which stated that NMW would have to be 4 times higher now than in the 1960s to enjoy the same standard of living back then.

Here's a link to how badly white working class boys do when leaving secondary school.
White students who are left behind: the importance of place - Office for Students

So we're not really going to get more wanting to do it 😕

@PiggyPigalle
"NMW would have to be 4 times higher now than in the 1960s to enjoy the same standard of living back then."

Utter, utter nonsense. There was no minimum wage in the 1960s. Families living in one or two rooms with no bathroom and an outside toilet shared with 3 other families. And these would be working families, not unemployed.
There is very real poverty in the UK, and there was back then as well.

@Terrribletwos Speak to any asylum seeker organisation. They all say the best thing the government could do is allow asylum seekers to work. If you have the nouse to leave your country and travel all the way to the UK, you tend to be the type who can get and hold down a job.

But it doesn't work here in Wigan. The police are already familiar with the problems and sit around chatting with them. Nothing is done to move them out of public spaces where women and children used to enjoy being.
It often feels as if there's some sort of decision been made to just screw everyone else. Nothing is done to take the stench of dog shit or skunk from the streets, no one is even encouraged to pick up the litter/poop.
There are no signs about fines, etc.

Here, it feels as if they (volatile men) own the streets and public spaces.
Women can just GTFO if they don't like it

And I can also vouch that no one is volunteering to pick up litter of join any kind of neighbourhood plan to help out. No one. We tried to get a very neglected dog some help and the rest of the neighbours said they didn't want to know. We also tried to get things in motion such as cleaning up the area but ...nothing.

We are sad to want to leave but it is definitely on the cards.

@jacksonlambsregulardisorder very much agree with that

That is a ridiculous lazy statement, the truth is that people have lost respect for themselves and their surroundings. It costs no more to be clean and tidy and pick up dog mess, than to be filthy. We now have a generation of lazy good for nothings that wouldn’t know a hard days work if it smacked them in the face.
Its utterly depressing that once lively, clean, cities and towns are now inhabited by these intimidating total losers.

@CatbellsOnTheSeashore Men are allowed to be out in public spaces. Why would the police move them on?

The huge proliferation of drugs in every town, city and village throughout the UK and criminal gangs is adding to the problem and I didn't hear any one of the campaigning mps mention it!

I want money laundering shops to be shut down. They are so fucking obvious. An estate agents full of house photos in the window with samples written over them, that has not been open once in two years.

Perhaps, cos they are openly drunk and drinking would be a good idea to move them on rather than chatting to them.

I think it's really important to stress that anti social , layabout behaviour really isn't all about immigrants- it's very mixed picture - otherwise areas with not that many immigrants would have no issues at all and certainly when I went back to my old hometown those hanging around were not immigrants, be that Eastern European or non European - they were clearly born and bred white locals judging by their accent - and a few women in the mix too - but mainly males 15 to 40 ish . I'm not saying there aren't immigrants in the mix in some places but it's a far more mixed picture in many places -

A lot of places, including mine, which is classed as a desirable area, have deteriorated in recent times. Slobby peolle and their feral kids seem to be taking over. 🤷‍♀️