The teacher from Batley is still in hiding

[Nicetrynigel]

Teacher Batley
His life ruined because a bunch of thugs decided they didn't like what he was teaching in his RE lesson.
This and the Labour MP's request for bhalsphey laws against those of the Abrahamic faith have made me concerned.

People should be free to offer an view against another's religion. It's scary that we are being a country where people thing being offended gives them a right to made death threats.

Absolutely spot on. Yet there are people spouting lies saying Allah is the greatest ‘thing’ since the wheel and do threaten to kill people because of it.
Religious nut jobs of any religion don’t have a place in the UK.

You actually think you can insult me and I will answer your questions? Are you adding arrogance to your hypocrisy?

You can’t have a civilised debate so I will not engage with you.

It might be beneficial for readers of this thread if you could provide an answer, as without one we can only speculate

I feel the government needs to be clear and say one god is not above the other in the England at least.
God is not a being nor a factual entity. Why should people be allowed to think that any religion is a reason for death threats.
You are free to practice your religious beliefs but don’t think it’s acceptable to try and change anything that is taught at state schools because you think it’s blasphemous.
We speak the lord’s name in vain on a daily basis. I’m sure it offends religious people but we live in a country that doesn’t give a shite about how it makes you feel.
Learn to be offended, learn tolerance and you’ll see that you will be more at peace within this country.
Santa isn’t real, to some Santa might as well be god.
It’s the UK, where religion is not sacred and all encompassing and should remain that way.

To be honest, if that's part of the religion that's fine, I think it's wrong to kill anyone, I'm very against violence. But Muslims can behave as they please in their own countries/states, I'm not a Muslim, it's their business. The problem is when they choose to live elsewhere and seek to impose this on others who have different beliefs.

Frankly I'd rather worship a magic guy who flies around the world on a sleigh pulled by reindeer delivering presents to everyone and bringing joy to children than a vengeful God wanting women in purdah and hands and heads chopped off for the slightest offence.
Honestly, who in their right mind would go for the second guy!

You're right, I misremembered the situation in Uganda, I thought the anti-homosexuality bill that proposed to punish "aggravated homosexuality" by death hadn't been signed into law.

But Uganda is not a random example. It is the only example of a non-muslim theocracy that murders its LGB citizens, out of 12 countries in total. Surely you must know this?

I think it was part of a larger collection involving various objects being immersed in / filled with various fluids, including urine and blood, to which the artist didn't assign any particular meaning at the time (I checked, it's been almost 40 years!).

The author, Andres Serrano did end up on the receiving end of some death threats and censorship, but neither were effective, thankfully. He seems to have ascribed the interpretation you mention (a metaphore for the mistreatment of Jesus and christianity) only decades later, and many people disbelieved him then. I'm admittedly a bit suspicious of post-modernist art myself 😃

Whatever his original intentions, Serrano was unhurt and un-cancelled. Which is how a rational society should handle real or perceived "blasphemy".

This.

Allowing extremists to dictate.

God is a belief and worth no more than any other belief. We should be allowed to make fun, call out or not follow what a book written by men says. Return to medieval times due to a particular faith having no tolerance for disbelievers

I agree.

People don't kill in the name of santa as some do with their Allah akbar as per extremists

sillything · Today 17:24

Uganda is a religious country, but not a theocracy. Many other non Muslim African countries have severe punishments, including life imprisonment, for homosexuality. If lesbians and gays are murdered, the killers are never found.

The strict laws in those countries, including the Ugandan death penalty, as you rightly say wasn't ratified, were framed and encouraged by American evangelical Christians.

I could have worded it more clearly, that's for sure (maybe an extra hyphen would've done it), but by "non-muslim theocracy" I didn't mean to say a theocracy of a different religion, just a country which isn't a muslim theocracy. I do know Uganda isn't nominally a theocracy, and that American evangelists were busy at work incensing the already existing local homophobic sentiments.

It looks like we were both wrong regarding the legal status of homosexuality in Uganda: a previous bill from 2014 was struck down by the Supreme Court in 2015, but last year Museveni signed the current bill into law. There's been at least one prosecution for "aggravated homosexuality" so far, but the "defendant" managed to get the charges downgraded and was freed on bail.

The point still stands that, of the 12 countries that punish homosexuality by death, 11 are muslim majority, and only one is christian majority.

Of the 55 countries that criminalise homosexuality, but do not punish it by death, 39 (77%) are muslim majority.

Of the 49 total muslim majority countries, only 10 don't specifically criminalise homosexuality. But, in a few of these, like Egypt and Jordan, LGB people are routinely persecuted under the guise of anti-prostitution laws or other statutes.

In many non-muslim majority countries, the muslim population is more hostile towards LGB people than the national average, as is the case in the UK, where 52% of muslims apparently want for homosexuality to be outlawed.

There is, of course, plenty of religious homophobia that is not of muslim origin. I don't think any major religion isn't homophobic (or misogynistic, or many other things), and I don't think I argued that. But, at least in the present, there is one religion that is noticeably more militant about it. Wouldn't you agree?

PS. Accurate statistics are very hard to come by. I've seen several sources describe Palestine / Gaza as a state where homosexuality is legal, for instance. But I don't think it affects the larger picture.

Edit: auto-correct typos!

Luckily we have free speech in the UK. If people do not like that they can go off and cry in corners, lobby to change the law or go somewhere where free speech is not always allowed like Afghanistan etc. This is how it is. People can like it or lump it.

Better not read too much of the bible. The first part especially. God loved a bit of righteous vengeance. 😉

If you have taken offence at what I've asked, that's up to you. There was no insult there. If you defend their response to the teacher you are apologising for it. I don't think the behaviour is justifiable and am asking how you believe it is.

I think you are evading answering a perfectly reasonable question. That is : Why are you defending behaviour that was illegal? It's ad hominem to fall back on calling me insulting to avoid offering an answer to that question.

You don't have to engage, of course, that's your right. But it seems odd to be so defensive. If you have a position to debate, why not debate it? Otherwise what's the point on coming on the thread?

If you have taken offence at what I've asked, that's up to you. There was no insult there. If you defend their response to the teacher you are apologising for it. I don't think the behaviour is justifiable and am asking how you believe it is.

I think you are evading answering a perfectly reasonable question. That is : Why are you defending behaviour that was illegal? It's ad hominem to fall back on calling me insulting, hypocritical and arrogant to avoid offering an answer to that question.

You don't have to engage, of course, that's your right. But it seems odd to be so defensive. If you have a position to debate, why not debate it? Otherwise what's the point on coming on the thread?

Repeat post to include post being referred to

Does Uganda usually have the death penalty for homosexuality? I thought it was imprisonment. I saw an article that had a charge or ‘aggravated homosexuality’, with mention of the death penalty. The article stated that this might usually involve minors, vulnerable people or infecting someone with HIV. Deliberately or knowingly, I presume. It is obviously a step back to criminalise homosexuality.

I know someone who lives in Uganda. He said that some international human rights organisations were involved campaigning against the new laws. He then said something interesting. He said there is widespread abuse of young girls, e.g. being married off to old fellows at 12. For a payment to their families. He said the human rights orgs didn’t really bother themselves in the same way campaigning against the abuse and exploitation of those girls. I know it is not an either/ or. However, it does show that human rights for some can be deemed more important than those of others. I’m sure some human rights activists would preach at length how the abuse of girls like this was ‘cultural’ or ‘tradition’. However, they’d never say the societal/legal intolerance against homosexuals was ‘cultural’ in the same way.

This was the article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66645740

I believe that is how the word faggot actually became a derogatory term for gay men. They would be burned in a similar manner.

Can you quote where I have defended the response to the teacher?

No you can’t.

Therefore your insult that I was ’an apologist for threatening, bullying and murderous behaviour’ was a lie.

Why on earth do you think I would engage with you? Why would I debate with you when you’re capable of lying to me?

Ok. Court upheld death penalty for ‘aggravated homosexuality’.

apnews.com/article/uganda-antigay-law-constitution-court-651623657b0a971e755080c7bda40a8b

Here is where you defend the behaviour of students and parents and blame the teacher for the situation.

Again, I asked you if you were an apologist for threatening, bullying and murderous behaviour. I didn't insult you by telling you you were. I'm asking how you think defending the behaviour in Batley is compatible with not being an apologist for it. Which, for the record, you still haven't answered.

You have continued to engage by replying to my posts, although you are correct to say you are not debating. You are making spurious claims to evade debating.

As I asked in the previous post, why do that?

I'll quote from wikipedia (though it's not always a trustworthy source):

"The act prescribes life imprisonment for sex between two people of the same biological sex and the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality". The latter offence includes "serial offenders", same-sex rape, sex in a position of authority or procured by intimidation, sex with persons older than seventy-five, sex with the disabled and mentally ill, and homosexual acts committed by a person with a previous conviction of homosexuality. Further, under its provisions, the promotion (including normalisation) of homosexuality is punishable by imprisonment for up to 20 years and fines."

Of course rape, coercion and absence of meaningful, informed consent, or the purposeful / neglectful transmission of STDs should always be criminalised, but regardless of sexual orientation. These provisions don't seem to apply to heterosexual sex in Uganda, though.

Simply having sex with someone of the same sex more than once, or having sex with someone of the same sex who is over 75 (even if you're also 75!) apparently mean you must be executed.

Thankfully the man in the news article you mention seems to have been released: https://theprint.in/world/ugandan-man-detained-for-nearly-year-over-homosexuality-freed-on-bail/2200259/

I'm not surprised Ugandan law and customs don't care about the rape and coercion of very young girls (by men, at any rate). Usually, when homophobia is strong, misogyny is even stronger. I think misogyny predates homophobia (or indeed any other sort of discrimination) by many millenia.

As a homosexual woman, I detest and abhor both, I can't believe it's the XXI century and we still have to put up with this stone-age sh*t. My hatred for anything that promotes either of these is as strong as their hatred for women and homosexuals is.

UK is a unique society where we practise tolerance of many different religions who all belive their God is the one.
Whether is scientology who believes we are aliens or Buddha, jesus, Allah etc.

Imagine if we are still in roman Times, worship gods of fire, wine, sky and so on.

The balance is disturbed when one party tries to dominate others through fear and violence.
I'm very happy to say I totally and utterly reject Catholicism. I was raised Catholic, baptised etc and now reject it.

How is it OK, that I feel safe to openly admit I reject my own religion but I'm actually scared in my own country to say I reject all religion including Islam?

How, is that OK????

I've actually told my dc who have Muslim friends, please don't tell them you don't like religion.
This is what we have been driven too by violence and fear. Disgusting.

How is saying that parents should be pre-warned that controversial images will be shared in the class so that they can decide whether to use their legal right to withdraw their child from that lesson make me an ‘an apologist for threatening, bullying and murderous behaviour’?

Your question was insulting. You are not owed anything from me.

There are no muslim, christian, hindu, buddhist or norse children.

That makes about as much sense as saying there are capitalist, communist, feudal or fascist children.

There are parents who think they're entitled to format their children into mini-mes. Children are still human beings, not property.

It's the welfare and education of the child that matter, not the egotistical feelings of adults.