To be fed up with an education system that ignores bright but quiet kids.

[ButterMints]

DD9 came home last night upset because once again her efforts in class had been ignored.

The teacher in the class had awarded class points to kids who had "worked hard in maths".

DD had got every question correct but didn't get a point. Points were awarded to children who didn't get 100%.

This seems to be a pattern with both my kids, where they are consistently ignored in favour of loud but less successful children.

My older child left primary school last year frustrated and disillusioned with school, having spent much of the time in class reading whilst others caught up with the work that they had already completed. And in their words, "I get 100% on my practice SATS papers every time and get nothing, but the kids who go from 50% to 60% get all the rewards."

I get it, I really do. Teachers have finite resources. But as a parent it's incredibly frustrating to once again find myself reassuring my child that their efforts do not go unnoticed.

It's a sad reflection of an education that is letting children down across the board. Schools desperately need more funding so that ALL children can reach their full potential.

I want to emphasise first that I don't disagree with this at all and completely understand the frustration!

But also…our state provision of education is to ensure that all children are able to access a certain level of education, so it makes sense that resources will go more to those who aren't meeting those goalposts. It has always been, and will always be, a parent/carer responsibility to provide above and beyond the bar that's been set. Sadly state education is not set up to provide individualised, tailored education and parents who want that either need to pay to access it privately or provide it themselves. I think it’s very unrealistic for any education system to provide this.

Reading through this thread it clearly differs from school to school. The primary my kids went to as I mentioned up thread was obsessed with academic success ( 50-60% of kids went on to one of the local grammar schools )

The bright kids , my DS being one of them were treated like they were the future masters of the universe. At the end of Y4 the year group would be split into fast and slow stream and there would be parents crying at the gate after the Y5 classes were announced. Some transferred their kids to private to avoid the shame of the slow stream. Friendship groups were destroyed because the fast stream kids didn't want to hang out with the slow stream kids.

My DD was slow stream and they were left to plod along while the fast stream kids had everything thrown at them to make sure they passed the 11 plus. Mr DS benefitted from this and went on to grammar school.

If you had a kid with behavioural issues but was actually very bright they would be put in the slow stream so as not to disrupt the learning of the fast stream kids.

My DD had a diagnosed learning difficulty ( adopted so had had an ed psyche evaluation done by social services) but the school ignored it despite social services getting involved.

Suddenly when SATs were approaching they suggested she probably shouldn't sit them because of her learning difficulty. They were clearly worried about their stats. I insisted she sit them as I had arranged outside tutoring to boost her. She failed all of them but only by a point or two - not so bad that she should never have sat them in the first place.

This was me. My primary school equated quiet with dim. My year 4 teacher accused my parents of doing my homework - my mum was borderline illiterate at the time and my dad worked on a different continent. My year 6 teacher put I fluked my SATs results.

Broadly my primary school went like this. "Scientist is quiet and doesn't engage" followed but "we have done some assessments and scientist is very bright" they soon forgot that and went back to "quiet and doesn't engage "

My secondary school was in a deprived area but quickly recognised that I was bright but in some GCSE classes only taught to grade C as they got funding based on 5+ A*-C if you were comfortably above grade C or well below you were left to your own devices. It did mean I was very self motivated and driven.

I went for on to get a first class degree and PhD and still feel very much like the shy quiet little girl I was in primary school. I found my niche and a job I love where my skills are recognised but am definitely one of those people who doesn't say anything unless I think I have something worth saying. When I do speak up I often get people commenting on how on the money my opinion was.

I can't really... my daughter is settled there. We just refuse to attend any prizegivings/sports days so she doesn't have to sit through it.

I think this happens because state primaries receive funding based on literacy rates so the more kids they can drag over the line the better. They don't really recognise smart kids unless they come with behaviour

Private. Or streaming from very young.
Our primary streamed on tables from year 1.
Everyone pretended that they didn't. But they did.

This is a ridiculous thing to say you can't possibly say children who get lower marks probably worked harder?! Children work hard to achieve both low and high scores!!
People with your attitude are the exact issue - this nasty perception that kids achieving high scores were just 'lucky' they 'found it easier'..... Maybe they worked bloody hard, actually!!!

Because if she gets the marks straight off then she doesn't need to work hard. The awards are incentives for children who struggle and need positive enforcement to keep going. Your daughter already has big brains as you have already touted about. She will live.

Sigh

it’s always about bright kids, grammar schools, ‘the teacher is ignoring my child’, ‘I’d go private if I could afford it’, isn’t it? No one ever says, ‘you know what, my kid isn’t Einstein, but he/she’s happy in his/her skin’. Endless unwarranted criticism of teaching staff.

I totally get what you are saying - it was just like this for my very bright but quiet eldest (now year 9 and excelling in a very academically selective school). My youngest is far more outgoing but just as intelligent and we actually moved him just for year 6 because he was so bored at his previous school we were worried I’m he would change from being completely focused and having excellent behaviour, to starting to be naughty. He is now totally engaged again at his new school where the teacher actually takes an interest in the few who are academically very able within the class, and challenges them. Occasionally the lessons still aren’t enough for him, but generally it’s much better than it was. He will also go to his brothers school next year (assuming he passes the entrance exams), but for this year he is so much happier. Have you thought about moving schools for your daughter? We specifically looked for one where they took an interest in the clever kids as well as everyone else.

The points still go to the naughtier or less able kids I’m afraid, but we teach our boys about the intrinsic value of doing well and that helps slightly.

Former teacher here: absolutely be fed up with it. But have sympathy with the teacher who is probably doing their best. They will be using rewards to promote good behaviours in children who don't always show them and it's a really sad fact that the quiet, well-behaved kids can get ignored. It happens in the best classrooms. There isn't an easy solution. Have a chat with your child about how their hard work is for their own benefit rather than for the goal of teacher approval and explain how someone who got 60% might have had to work really really hard to get that and that's why the teacher is focusing on them. Then having a quiet word with the teacher and explain that your child is struggling with this, you completely understand why it happens and you have had a chat with them. That might be enough to set a reminder in the teacher's mind to reward the quiet ones. You are right to be frustrated, and a gentle, non-confrontational word with the teacher might help here.

Most school prospectus have a gifted and able programme to show how they support /challenge bright children and Ofsted look for evidence to show that bright children are being challenged in school. Read it and if you think your child’s needs are not being met either talk to the class teacher or speak to the head .

It’s all a fix. I have an exceptionally bright 10 year old. He jumps through all the hoops and exceeding targets. Always overlooked. They use points systems as a carrot for the louder ones to get them to behave and the ones who aren’t at the same level to bring them on. Like treating a dog when they pee outside when you want them to, you don’t treat the dog who gets on with it and does it anyway because that is the expectation. I’ve had many a battle over this at parents evening. The good kids get feck all. My son has been sat next to a child all this week that struggles to concentrate and shouts out. They have done my son in to the point he doesn’t want to go to school tomorrow. This has also happened before and the good kids used as classroom management pawns.

You see, I think I was actually doing something pretty good by consistently getting 100% in spelling tests, considering that I was the kid who had spent the evenings trying to not trigger my mother into giving me another battering or being woken up at 1.37am by her launching into my bedroom screaming at me, pulling my shelves down over the bed and throwing my books at my face.

But hey, the safe, well fed and loved kids got the rewards because it wouldn't be fair if I got something for being able to learn spellings quickly in school in case the book got thrown out or torn up in a rage. To be fair, they couldn't see the bruises or the lack of sleep as I was doing fine at school - how were they supposed to know that abused kids can be clever, too?

You're right. This was my DD's experience too, all her reports said 'quiet and well behaved' although I knew she is very intelligent and academically able. Then her results at some test apparently 'blew her teacher away' because he just didn't notice her before. The louder kids, mainly boys, absorbed all the attention. I moved her to a private school where her skills have been recognised and nurtured.

I one hundred percent agree with you. My daughter is so well behaved and works hard. She is genuinely quite bright. When a kid is naughty and needs to be moved it is always her that is asked to move, when they didn’t have enough reading books to send home, she was the one without. The same with the awards going to the kids that don’t usually behave and when they do for 5 minutes they get the awards. I get positive re enforcement don’t get me wrong but it’s not fair to the behaved kids. My daughter is 5, she should not be expected to self validate as other posters have suggested, she’s a child and deserves the same positive re enforcement that she is doing well.

Just because a child does well doesn’t meant they didn’t have to work hard, my son got 92% in an exam because he worked so so hard, his mate got 60% because he wasn’t bothered and did not work at home (they are 11) so we can’t just say cause a kid gets 100% it was easy for them or that they didn’t have to work hard.

That’s not true, my son has to work hard, yes he gets top marks but doesn’t mean he doesn’t struggle at times. Her daughters feelings are valid, just as the children who get less marks. They all deserve positive re enforcement. This is how the well behaved kids start to get lazy and mirror the behaviour of the others.

Yeh, I was like that. Knowing I was the best was a good enough reward for me. And I knew that my teachers knew I was brilliant (eg 100% in tests etc) - again it was enough to know. I loved winning. Some children need praise from others, but for some, being the best, regardless of praise, is plenty.

As both a teacher and mother of naturally quiet but intelligent children, I feel there are a number of valuable lesson to teach your children in this situation. The first is for your children to learn to make themselves heard- let everyone know when they've worked hard and done well. Dont sit quietly and expect others to notice. The second lesson is that academic success doesn't beat hard work and progress. I have bright children in my class who always succeed academically but rarely push themselves and children who really struggle academically but always push themselves. Which would you reward? Lesson 3- academic success is great but it isn't the best indicator of life success. Research regularly shows that good social skills have a bigger impact on success than academics. There is a far larger skill set needed in the classroom than doing well and being quiet. Teach your children to self advocate, challenge themselves, help others, become emotionally intelligent, get themselves noticed, be likeable and be supportive to all children.

But sustained and consistent effort is praise worthy in itself. I know where you’re coming from OP as my son was like that. He’s doing a difficult subject at Cambridge now so I guess he finally got his reward! 😆

it takes an experienced and special teacher to make an effort to “notice” the kids who always put effort in and always achieve good results because of this. I don’t blame them, I work in a primary myself and it is an insanely busy place every minute of the day. The curriculum is absolutely stuffed. Of course they DO notice the consistently high achieving kids, but I guess when there is so much pressure on their time they need to focus on bringing on the kids who don’t achieve so well and it is easy to forget the “wallpaper children” and just let them carry on doing their thing.

when my own kids were at school they did enjoy getting a glowing end of year report, so I guess for them that’s where the reward lies for them. Some really strong praise from you will be appreciated I’m sure, as will hearing you praise her achievements to a doting grandparent in her presence. I do remember one of my sons saying similar to me, that he never got certificates for academic stuff even though he was top of the class in maths or whatever. So we had a conversation about certificates often rewarding improvement or huge effort whereas he didn’t have much to improve in that area and was lucky enough to find it easy so didn’t need to make a huge effort either. I reassured him that the teacher DID notice him achieve those high marks and that for him, knowing he got top marks is reward in itself, and he agreed.

Actually I think some schools could also make more of giving out more non-academic achievement certificates to the academic kids. Sometimes their whole self esteem and focus is tied up in keeping up their strong academic reputation, and that’s not good. Far better to have a balance and remember to give such kids certificates or points for improvement in non academic things they may struggle with like PE or neat handwriting or emotional skills development or skills such as team work, resilience etc

But again, I don’t blame any school for not being perfect in this area. Their job is difficult and pressured enough, and if the able kids are doing well and not falling behind then that is a big tick in their favour.

I de-registered both my DDs and have chosen to home school. They’re both ND and ridiculously bright … and they were just being held back. Thankfully they really enjoy learning at their own pace and are really driven. I have no idea how this will bode for their futures but I do know they’re both much happier, more curious and frankly way above my pay grade as a teacher.

There are gifted and talented initiatives in many schools. There is a gifted and talented society especially for children like yours. Look on line. A good teacher should be diversifying for all children and have specific reward schemes for each group of children. It's a real opportunity to enrich the whole class and a great way of including your children and enriching their learning experience making them feel part of the experience. It can be down to resources and that should be catered for. It can also be down to low teacher numbers and new teacher inexperience. I hope all this changes for your child soon. Good luck with it.

https://world-gifted.org/

You can make this exact same argument the other way - education is set up to take kids to a certain functional level. So there is no reason to spend on kids that can't reach that level, taking resources from those who could meet or exceed that standard and contribute most productively to society.

If parents want special provision for kids who struggle academically they need to provide it themselves.

If either of those things were the real goal of the education system I'd think they should be trying to make private provision as easy as possible for parents rather than trying to make it out of reach.

But I am not convinced that is the goal actually, as I understand it it is to help all kids reach their academic potential. Not only for their own good, but for the good of society.