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The FACTS about the farming IHT issues

343 replies

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:52

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
littlebilliie · 30/11/2024 19:22

Elsvieta · 30/11/2024 18:52

It seems to me that all farmland should be state owned, and all farmers tenant farmers. They should apply as if for any other job, with required qualifications (such as a degree from agricultural college), a fixed salary (perhaps with some bonuses for productivity), generous pensions and mandatory retirement at 60. We could have more joined-up thinking across regions on how land is used - how much for food production, how much for planting trees etc to reduce flood risk, how much set-aside such as wildflower land to benefit insect life etc, how much for housing (no more farmers flogging unsuitable land to the worst kind of greedy developers, because it's the only way to pay the bills - just social housing where it's needed, not-for-profit building). All land used for the good of society at large, not used to hoard wealth, and all farmers making a living regardless of the ups and downs of bad weather and everything else that makes their income so unpredictable. Then some legislation forcing supermarkets to pay what the food's actually worth, and a ban on importing anything we can produce enough of here.

What am I missing?

Golly what a misunderstanding of farming.

The land in one part of the country will be different to another.

There is a knowledge that comes with owning land, when it floods how to drain it and how to get the most produce. This is passed down through generations of farmers.

Perhaps you are looking down the telescope the wrong way, perhaps supermarkets and their greenwashing through farms should be halted.

Supermarkets should be more accountable to farmers.

A well know supermarket has dumped a whole farming community for milk production recently. They were loyal and put up with the supermarket "greenwash" expectations. They have moved to a yogurt producer and getting paid more with less hassle.

I think you need to read a bit more and try understanding the farming community

geenideewaarom · 30/11/2024 19:29

I'm reading this with increasing levels of bewilderment at how so many commentators can be so utterly thick as to think that reducing our food production will help in an increasingly volatile world. Yes by all means let's rely on Europe's grain basket in Ukraine - that worked so well when Russia invaded and prices went up for everyone. Or the potato argument which is apparently a crop that can be produced at any time (apart from in waterlogged fields or when there's a drought). And I really can't get my head around the fact that a doctor's children will have to pay inheritance tax and so a farmer's family should as well. Do those doctor's children continue their work or might they have their own careers? Completely different situations so stop spouting that nonsense. My children will have to pay a fair whack when we both die but not a single one will be worse off apart from maybe having to leave the family home a year or so before they might have chosen to and we have left extensive guidance on what to do. This is very different from a situation where a family business needs to continue.

MarkingBad · 30/11/2024 19:44

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:52

But they get subsidies. And I would pay more for milk if need be.

There is a lot of confusion about subsidies so here is a link for those interested

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/funding-for-farmers

I also want to say that the UK and EU are not alone in giving farming subsidies, it is a system used world over. Subsidies are not restricted to agriculture either.

I'm offering links because everytime I have tried to have a sensible discussion, here and elsewhere it falls into some farming version of Godwins Law where the word subsidies tends to be used without much understanding of what they are. So to avoid that, this is the UK version. Also bear in mind devolved governments also sometimes have their own schemes for preserving scenery and traditional production

Funding for farmers, growers and land managers

Apply for grants and other funding to increase productivity, manage your land to benefit the environment and support your agricultural business.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/funding-for-farmers

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 19:56

geenideewaarom · 30/11/2024 19:29

I'm reading this with increasing levels of bewilderment at how so many commentators can be so utterly thick as to think that reducing our food production will help in an increasingly volatile world. Yes by all means let's rely on Europe's grain basket in Ukraine - that worked so well when Russia invaded and prices went up for everyone. Or the potato argument which is apparently a crop that can be produced at any time (apart from in waterlogged fields or when there's a drought). And I really can't get my head around the fact that a doctor's children will have to pay inheritance tax and so a farmer's family should as well. Do those doctor's children continue their work or might they have their own careers? Completely different situations so stop spouting that nonsense. My children will have to pay a fair whack when we both die but not a single one will be worse off apart from maybe having to leave the family home a year or so before they might have chosen to and we have left extensive guidance on what to do. This is very different from a situation where a family business needs to continue.

Isn’t it more ‘utterly thick’ when people read things that aren’t there? Who said to reduce food production?

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 20:10

@Dimpliy you have had it explained to you multiple times!
Farmers will be forced to sell farm to pay the IHT Bill
as IHT bill will NOT be AFFORDABLE for farms to pay within 10 years.

Other farmers won't be able to afford it. Mortgage will be UNAFFORDABLE even on an interest only basis. Plus any farmers with capital will now hold onto it to pay IHT instead of investing.

So it will be big business which buys it. They will want a return on investment so they will do one of the following

  1. Develop the land
  2. use the land for carbon credits

They will not let it out to farmers because that won't bring them any return on their investment as rents have to be low enough for tenant farmers to afford them.

OP posts:
notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 20:11

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 20:10

@Dimpliy you have had it explained to you multiple times!
Farmers will be forced to sell farm to pay the IHT Bill
as IHT bill will NOT be AFFORDABLE for farms to pay within 10 years.

Other farmers won't be able to afford it. Mortgage will be UNAFFORDABLE even on an interest only basis. Plus any farmers with capital will now hold onto it to pay IHT instead of investing.

So it will be big business which buys it. They will want a return on investment so they will do one of the following

  1. Develop the land
  2. use the land for carbon credits

They will not let it out to farmers because that won't bring them any return on their investment as rents have to be low enough for tenant farmers to afford them.

You can't grow crops or rear livestock without farmers!

OP posts:
geenideewaarom · 30/11/2024 20:21

@Dimpliy and who is going to do that? When farms become ever more expensive to buy and food costs are kept artificially low why would you take on the hassle of a business that is dependent on so many variables? Too many people just want to buy whatever they want, when they want it without giving a thought to climatic issues

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 20:42

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 20:10

@Dimpliy you have had it explained to you multiple times!
Farmers will be forced to sell farm to pay the IHT Bill
as IHT bill will NOT be AFFORDABLE for farms to pay within 10 years.

Other farmers won't be able to afford it. Mortgage will be UNAFFORDABLE even on an interest only basis. Plus any farmers with capital will now hold onto it to pay IHT instead of investing.

So it will be big business which buys it. They will want a return on investment so they will do one of the following

  1. Develop the land
  2. use the land for carbon credits

They will not let it out to farmers because that won't bring them any return on their investment as rents have to be low enough for tenant farmers to afford them.

Then farming families need to do tax planning like everyone else.

At the moment I’m prepared to give the government the benefit of the doubt that they’ve done their analysis correctly.

I’m not simply going to take your doom-mongering at face value.

We’re in a cost of living crisis, everyone needs to their bit, include those sitting on millions of ponds of land.

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 20:47

Well instead of putting out false unproven prophecies on here, why not help the farmers go after the supermarkets. Cut their profit margins rather than farm profit and customer costs.

@MarkingBad I actually agree the subsidy system needs a lot of work. Unfortunately for many years the farming community did farm the subsidy and not the land. Making the clever ones very wealthy indeed. Conversely the subsidy system did play a part in increasing land values. Farmers knew that buying 'x' land gave them a guaranteed subsidy payment.

@geenideewaarom The plan of this tax is to remove the legal tax evasion loophole that non farmers are using, this should help in reducing land values and allowing new farmers the opportunity.

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 20:54

@Dimpliy don't take my word for it then go and do some bloody research and find out the facts for yourself! Then come back a little better educated and a little less naive!
You can choose to give the benefit of the doubt to the government but there are literally hundreds of farming families futures at stake. And quite frankly I like thousands of others don't trust a government that is prepared to lie and misrepresent the figures the way they have for this budget. Equally nor would I trust a government that is capable of cocking up the figures as badly as they have!

OP posts:
ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 20:57

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 20:54

@Dimpliy don't take my word for it then go and do some bloody research and find out the facts for yourself! Then come back a little better educated and a little less naive!
You can choose to give the benefit of the doubt to the government but there are literally hundreds of farming families futures at stake. And quite frankly I like thousands of others don't trust a government that is prepared to lie and misrepresent the figures the way they have for this budget. Equally nor would I trust a government that is capable of cocking up the figures as badly as they have!

Please put the word 'possibly' in front of all your statements.

Elsvieta · 30/11/2024 21:01

littlebilliie · 30/11/2024 19:22

Golly what a misunderstanding of farming.

The land in one part of the country will be different to another.

There is a knowledge that comes with owning land, when it floods how to drain it and how to get the most produce. This is passed down through generations of farmers.

Perhaps you are looking down the telescope the wrong way, perhaps supermarkets and their greenwashing through farms should be halted.

Supermarkets should be more accountable to farmers.

A well know supermarket has dumped a whole farming community for milk production recently. They were loyal and put up with the supermarket "greenwash" expectations. They have moved to a yogurt producer and getting paid more with less hassle.

I think you need to read a bit more and try understanding the farming community

Wouldn't the same knowledge be passed between the people who worked there? How does owning it (or being a blood relation of previous owners) make a difference, if you've spent your career there and overlapped with other people who've done the same?

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 21:38

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 20:54

@Dimpliy don't take my word for it then go and do some bloody research and find out the facts for yourself! Then come back a little better educated and a little less naive!
You can choose to give the benefit of the doubt to the government but there are literally hundreds of farming families futures at stake. And quite frankly I like thousands of others don't trust a government that is prepared to lie and misrepresent the figures the way they have for this budget. Equally nor would I trust a government that is capable of cocking up the figures as badly as they have!

You’re so rude and then wonder why no one takes you seriously.

You haven’t posted any facts, OP.

Even the Farmer’s Weekly table of answers you posted was vague. All it said is ‘many more’ farms will be affected than the government have said. That means nothing as they have no facts.

You are not well informed yourself but are asking us to believe you and then rude with it too.

littlebilliie · 30/11/2024 21:43

@Elsvieta you are simplifying farming it's not a job

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 21:53

littlebilliie · 30/11/2024 21:43

@Elsvieta you are simplifying farming it's not a job

It is a business just like other businesses. Some farmers need dragged kicking and screaming towards this fact for some reason.

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 21:57

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 21:53

It is a business just like other businesses. Some farmers need dragged kicking and screaming towards this fact for some reason.

Not quite like any other business. This is a product that every human being on the planet requires.

Elsvieta · 30/11/2024 22:04

littlebilliie · 30/11/2024 21:43

@Elsvieta you are simplifying farming it's not a job

I'm saying it SHOULD be a job. It should be done by those who are most qualified, like any other job, and have a fixed salary and benefits like other jobs. The whole system as it stands is medieval.

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 22:05

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 21:57

Not quite like any other business. This is a product that every human being on the planet requires.

As I've said before. We are all cogs in the big machine. We need food yes, the tractor needs diesel, the diesel needs refined from the crude oil that men are drilling. It needs delivering to wholesaler then the farm.

The tractor also needs manufactured (just as an insight into farmers love and concern for the whole Country, have a look at where most tractors are built now), it then needs the wholesaler to stock and sell it. It then needs all manner of technicians to maintain it. What about tyre fitters and manufacturers.

Moving off the farm, what about the housebuilders who house the people doing the above work. The Dr's and nurses at the hospital, The ambulance driver.

Every person is important in their own way.

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 22:05

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 21:57

Not quite like any other business. This is a product that every human being on the planet requires.

That’s doesn’t mean you can hold the country to ransom and sit on millions of pounds worth of land and not pay tax on it.

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 22:06

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 22:05

As I've said before. We are all cogs in the big machine. We need food yes, the tractor needs diesel, the diesel needs refined from the crude oil that men are drilling. It needs delivering to wholesaler then the farm.

The tractor also needs manufactured (just as an insight into farmers love and concern for the whole Country, have a look at where most tractors are built now), it then needs the wholesaler to stock and sell it. It then needs all manner of technicians to maintain it. What about tyre fitters and manufacturers.

Moving off the farm, what about the housebuilders who house the people doing the above work. The Dr's and nurses at the hospital, The ambulance driver.

Every person is important in their own way.

Well said. This view that only farmers matter is so weird.

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 22:09

And absolutely none of them can work without food!

No farms - no farmer - no food.

But clearly you cannot educate stupid!

OP posts:
SpiritAdder · 30/11/2024 22:10

Birdscratch · 26/11/2024 16:17

If it’s not working as a business model then you need a different model. If family farms aren’t financially viable anymore then maybe we need bigger farms with fewer owners.

Be careful what you wish for!! We have gargantuan corporate owned farms here in the US and it’s all about lobbying to use GMOs and pesticides that have and are poisoning the land and people. The same for industrial scale animal farming, bye bye animal welfare.

Farming isn’t something that should be run like a for profit business in my opinion.

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 22:12

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 22:09

And absolutely none of them can work without food!

No farms - no farmer - no food.

But clearly you cannot educate stupid!

And no farmers or anyone else can do their job without the other infrastructure. And as we all know, there will be farms, and there will be farmers. It just might be a much needed change of ownership.

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 22:13

SpiritAdder · 30/11/2024 22:10

Be careful what you wish for!! We have gargantuan corporate owned farms here in the US and it’s all about lobbying to use GMOs and pesticides that have and are poisoning the land and people. The same for industrial scale animal farming, bye bye animal welfare.

Farming isn’t something that should be run like a for profit business in my opinion.

''Farming isn’t something that should be run like a for profit business in my opinion.''

In which case the other option is a communist style method of farming and the land belongs the nation.

SpiritAdder · 30/11/2024 22:18

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 22:13

''Farming isn’t something that should be run like a for profit business in my opinion.''

In which case the other option is a communist style method of farming and the land belongs the nation.

There are lots of options other than going communist.

Farming can be not for profit, or a charity
Farming can be subsidised
Farming can be done as a co-operative
Farming can be tariff exempt for import/export
The Government can tax sales of land rather than inheritance to direct heirs