Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The FACTS about the farming IHT issues

343 replies

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:52

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Christwosheds · 27/11/2024 22:54

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 16:29

Do we need the wealthy to own land that is farmed by others and produces food? Yes we do.
You are completely undervaluing the need for tenanted farm land which allows those without an inheritance to farm.

I agree with this as I know a lot of tenant farmers who wouldn’t be able to afford to buy their farms, but who are farming really well, in a sustainable way that is good for land and livestock.
The people saying it would be better to have fewer family farms - really ? Huge industrial farms use industrial methods, which are not great for the environment . We lose habitat, we get food produced in a more industrial way, eg factory farmed meat, crops grown with high levels of pesticides .
With smaller farms there is more diversity of farming and landscape.
This “the farm is worth x million” is a strange argument because many of these farms would only rarely be sold, they are passed down through families, and then have many generations worth of knowledge about that specific landscape. This in itself is priceless. Pricing up land per acre then the value of the farmhouse as though it is any other house, it is a really strange way of looking at farming.

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 15:55

ARealitycheck · 27/11/2024 11:55

I'd suggest the OP despite claiming to have no connection to agriculture whatsoever does seem very intent on stopping this change to IHT. I would question how somebody like this has knowledge of eg legal requirements for muck pits and similar legislation.

I'm not saying the OP is being dishonest about her connection to farming. But a suspicious man might question it at the same time as the claims without foundation that majority of farms will be affected.

@ARealitycheck I said I am not a farmer not that I have zero connections to agriculture. I run a rural Homecare business and a significant number of our clients are from farming backgrounds. Naturally the conversation over the past month has been dominated by this and how frightened many of them are. I have literally sat with an elderly farmer this week who was in tears because he feels he has failed his children. He hasn't passed the farm onto them yet but knows that he is unlikely to be here in 7 years time.

So no I don't work directly in farming but I do live and work in the community and hear and know the worry that there is.

OP posts:
notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 16:00

PocketSand · 27/11/2024 16:28

There are poor farmers that are struggling economically and with their with mental health.

There are also rich farmers who generationally send their kid to private schools. I lived in an area where this was overwhelmingly the case.

There are also the wealthy that see this as a tax dodge.

The privileged groups didn't give a toss about poor farmers before the IHT change. Where were the campaigns?

The ICT change has less effect on poor farmers but the wealthy are supposedly campaigning on their behalf and for food security despite selling off land to developers at huge profit.

What would you have wanted them to be campaigning about before the IHT issue @PocketSand?
This has only become known in the past 4 weeks. So how were any of them supposed to campaign before that?
If you're referring to other farming issues like the change to the basic payment or mental health issues in farming then there have been numerous campaigns and discussions for years raising these issues.
It might have escaped your attention but they have been very much real!

OP posts:
cardibach · 28/11/2024 16:03

I’m not the person you asked - but campaigns I’d get behind:

  • sorting out supermarket price gouging to get fair prices for farmers
  • good mental health services in rural areas (which are currently even worse served than towns)
  • more rights for tenant farmers

IHT - not so much.

Edit: the campaigns about these things (where they existed) didn’t attract the support of the oh-so-caring Clarkson or Farage, did they?

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 16:31

@Christwosheds

''This “the farm is worth x million” is a strange argument because many of these farms would only rarely be sold, they are passed down through families, and then have many generations worth of knowledge about that specific landscape''.

As all we keep being told is that the farms are ran at a loss and they are all down to their last ha'penny, it could be argued that fresh blood may be able to implement newer more modern production to the land.

''Pricing up land per acre then the value of the farmhouse as though it is any other house, it is a really strange way of looking at farming.''

Not really. The farmer and partner are able to use their own personal allowances as well as the allowance on the acreage. Lets be entirely reasonable here. If anybody in another sector were to inherit an eg £300k house on top of the circa £2.7m minimum business before they pay any tax, they would extremely happy.

anniegun · 28/11/2024 16:34

Everybody should pay IHT at the same rate. Choosing one occupation and given them special privileges is wrong. Claiming that wealth landowners should get special tax treatment because they can then rent out their land cheaply is like saying landlords should receive subsidies in the hope they rent houses for less.

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 16:36

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 15:55

@ARealitycheck I said I am not a farmer not that I have zero connections to agriculture. I run a rural Homecare business and a significant number of our clients are from farming backgrounds. Naturally the conversation over the past month has been dominated by this and how frightened many of them are. I have literally sat with an elderly farmer this week who was in tears because he feels he has failed his children. He hasn't passed the farm onto them yet but knows that he is unlikely to be here in 7 years time.

So no I don't work directly in farming but I do live and work in the community and hear and know the worry that there is.

Well with all due respect. Your opinion on it is being swayed by a very small poll of your customers.

anniegun · 28/11/2024 16:38

Clavinova · 26/11/2024 19:30

ExtraOnions
So should Doctors, Nurses, Carers, Fire Fighters, Police officers, also get a different tax regime, or are they not critical?

Labour were willing to make exceptions for NHS doctors and other public servants when it suited them;

Ms Reeves had called the decision to scrap the [pension savings cap] “the wrong priority, at the wrong time, for the wrong people”.

However, she had promised that a Labour government would make exceptions for NHS doctors and other public servants when the cap returned.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11n2krmm4o

They do not get special treatment for tax purposes . Only landowners, like Clarkson, who still get a more favourable IHT rate than the rest of us

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 16:53

@ARealitycheck no it's not. Because funnily enough I'm capable of hearing multiple different viewpoints, doing some research, and coming to my own conclusions!

You are completely blinded by your own preconceived biases however. Repeatedly you have been shown to be incorrect by numerous posters other than myself.

OP posts:
Nanny0gg · 28/11/2024 16:56

WestwardHo1 · 26/11/2024 17:25

This is an awful idea.

Farms aren't just any old business model.

The way farmland is managed, quite apart from the food issue, is key to biodiversity, water quality and flood management.

Why can't people see this? It's so frustrating when biodiversity is dismissed as something only hippies are interested in, when it's so crucial. Do you imagine giant megafarms will have no adverse affect on those things?

And factory farming the animals

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 16:57

cardibach · 28/11/2024 16:03

I’m not the person you asked - but campaigns I’d get behind:

  • sorting out supermarket price gouging to get fair prices for farmers
  • good mental health services in rural areas (which are currently even worse served than towns)
  • more rights for tenant farmers

IHT - not so much.

Edit: the campaigns about these things (where they existed) didn’t attract the support of the oh-so-caring Clarkson or Farage, did they?

Edited

Clarkson has been beating the drum about prices and mental health health in farming for ages.
Farage not so much - I detest the man so avoid reading anything about him. He wasn't welcomed at the rally in the way Clarkson was either. He was tolerated at best. Farage manages to turn up like a bad smell wherever he feels he might be able to get his ugly mug in the papers.

OP posts:
notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 17:01

anniegun · 28/11/2024 16:34

Everybody should pay IHT at the same rate. Choosing one occupation and given them special privileges is wrong. Claiming that wealth landowners should get special tax treatment because they can then rent out their land cheaply is like saying landlords should receive subsidies in the hope they rent houses for less.

In which case you would be happy for ALL allowances to go for IHT then? Including the personal allowances everyone has?

Because at present less than 7% of estates pay IHT.

You also presumably would be happy to pay at least double current prices for your food?

OP posts:
ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 17:03

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 16:53

@ARealitycheck no it's not. Because funnily enough I'm capable of hearing multiple different viewpoints, doing some research, and coming to my own conclusions!

You are completely blinded by your own preconceived biases however. Repeatedly you have been shown to be incorrect by numerous posters other than myself.

You mean your research that comes from the farmers mouth who are renowned for their ability to moan, especially about money. 😁Aye the rest of us wouldn't take that as gospel.

The rest of your claims are only your opinion and supposition. You cannot say the land will be bought up by investors. You cannot say the land will be turned into housing. You cannot say that land prices may not drop and allow tenant farmers etc a chance on to the ladder. You cannot say that food prices will increase dramatically.

cardibach · 28/11/2024 17:03

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 16:57

Clarkson has been beating the drum about prices and mental health health in farming for ages.
Farage not so much - I detest the man so avoid reading anything about him. He wasn't welcomed at the rally in the way Clarkson was either. He was tolerated at best. Farage manages to turn up like a bad smell wherever he feels he might be able to get his ugly mug in the papers.

Beating the drum? But not marching or speaking at demos?

cardibach · 28/11/2024 17:05

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 17:01

In which case you would be happy for ALL allowances to go for IHT then? Including the personal allowances everyone has?

Because at present less than 7% of estates pay IHT.

You also presumably would be happy to pay at least double current prices for your food?

All estates (except farms) pay it at the same rate. It’s just that most don't meet the threshold. That’s a totally different criterion and it’s beneath you to pretend you don’t understand that. Farms have a different threshold and a different rate b

Boomer55 · 28/11/2024 17:08

Tenant farmers won't be affected as they own nothing.

When my uncle died, his money was left from what he'd built up, through his business. Not farming.

i had to pay 40% IHT immediately, no reduced rate, or 10 years to pay.

Why do farmers think they are special? They voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, which has cost the country a minimum of £100 billion. It has to be paid for. The fact that they have now realised Brexit has made them worse off is not our problem.

Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.

Best they suck up IHT as the rest of us have to. 🙄

MarkingBad · 28/11/2024 18:26

No not Farage but Clarkson has been highlighting mental health problems in agriculture for some time and his beer brand funding a partnership with Shout to provide a free text helpline for farmers with mental health issues.

Won't be enough though, those who hate him will no doubt cast aspersions of virtue signalling. Who knows but truth be told he has still given air space to issues within the industry faced by farmers and farm workers daily and often in silence.

https://giveusashout.org/latest/hawkstone-partnership-to-support-farmers/

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2024-08-19/jeremy-clarkson-launches-helpline-for-farmers-struggling-with-mental-health

cardibach · 28/11/2024 18:40

I dislike him, but I can applaud good things. He didn’t march on parliament about it though, did he?

Winter2020 · 28/11/2024 18:41

anniegun · 28/11/2024 16:34

Everybody should pay IHT at the same rate. Choosing one occupation and given them special privileges is wrong. Claiming that wealth landowners should get special tax treatment because they can then rent out their land cheaply is like saying landlords should receive subsidies in the hope they rent houses for less.

When American and Chinese etc investment firms own our farming and food production and it is worked by people on minimum wage using industrial methods look back at this post and decide if you still stand by it.

quantumbutterfly · 28/11/2024 18:49

MarkingBad · 28/11/2024 18:26

No not Farage but Clarkson has been highlighting mental health problems in agriculture for some time and his beer brand funding a partnership with Shout to provide a free text helpline for farmers with mental health issues.

Won't be enough though, those who hate him will no doubt cast aspersions of virtue signalling. Who knows but truth be told he has still given air space to issues within the industry faced by farmers and farm workers daily and often in silence.

https://giveusashout.org/latest/hawkstone-partnership-to-support-farmers/

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2024-08-19/jeremy-clarkson-launches-helpline-for-farmers-struggling-with-mental-health

I also thought Clarkson was a terrible arse, but watching the Clarkson's Farm series shed a new light on him.
I was already aware of issues in the agriculture/food industry and glad he was bringing it to a wider audience, or at least an audience that would never listen to 'the archers'.
Same with the yorkshire shepherdess woman, though people seem more interested in her love life than the in and outs of her working life.

cardibach · 28/11/2024 18:59

Clarkson’s Farm cemented my opinion of him as a total arse. His contempt for the actual experts was clear.

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:08

cardibach · 28/11/2024 18:40

I dislike him, but I can applaud good things. He didn’t march on parliament about it though, did he?

He was at the rally last week 🤷🏻‍♀️ he has been speaking to media about it since the issue was first raised.
Seriously nobody can do the right thing here!

OP posts:
MarkingBad · 28/11/2024 19:08

Boomer55 · 28/11/2024 17:08

Tenant farmers won't be affected as they own nothing.

When my uncle died, his money was left from what he'd built up, through his business. Not farming.

i had to pay 40% IHT immediately, no reduced rate, or 10 years to pay.

Why do farmers think they are special? They voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, which has cost the country a minimum of £100 billion. It has to be paid for. The fact that they have now realised Brexit has made them worse off is not our problem.

Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.

Best they suck up IHT as the rest of us have to. 🙄

Tenant farmers won't be affected as they own nothing.

No they won't, unless they have to lose some or vacate the land they farm which is earmarked to be sold to pay IHT.

When my uncle died, his money was left from what he'd built up, through his business. Not farming.
i had to pay 40% IHT immediately, no reduced rate, or 10 years to pay.

Yep me too, nearly broke me to pay it too because the house couldn't be sold prior to paying it and no other beneficiaries had savings to pay it.

Yet I keep hearing about how only a small amount of seriously wealthy people have to pay not those of us who still have to earn wages so that's incorrect too isn't it. That farmers and others have been trying to highlight that IHT is not just a tax on the wealthy but a tax on people who certainly are not wealthy too and is an unfair system.

What's wrong with highlighting that IHT is and always has been a shit tax and a sledgehammer to crack a walnut?

Why do farmers think they are special?

They don't, they know they are on land that is sometimes incredibly overvalued thanks to the non farming private investors. That being on over valued land makes them very vulnerable as it is nigh on impossible to pay a massive bill on considering the income that can be expected from that same land.

They voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, which has cost the country a minimum of £100 billion. It has to be paid for. The fact that they have now realised Brexit has made them worse off is not our problem.

The government of the day called the referendum, they lived, as all governments do, in an echo chamber of London metropolitan elites who all told them no one would vote for leave. The government called the referendum, not one tiny industry of fewer than half a million voting age people.

If you are looking for anyone to blame for Brexit, blame the politicians who not only called it but then failed to make a better case for remain.

Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.

Surely this is down to HMRC and ultimately successive governments who knew full well about the land tax loophole and yet kept it open because their wealthy party donors were using it?

Best they suck up IHT as the rest of us have to. 🙄

Why put up with a shit tax imposed on people who are not wealthy yet are always told it only affects wealthy people? It doesn't it affects lots of people from all walks of life and incomes.

Why not ask the government to make a change to improve IHT by raising the qualification threshold to those that are actually wealthy so it doesn't affect a wage earning public? Or scrap it all together and do something better to tax wealth.

We don't have to suck anything up if we stopped believing the same old divisive trot that comes out of the party friendly media. If we actually looked at who these damn fool policies and crap taxes really benefit we could all tell those who are supposed to work for us, (not us for them), to change it.

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:10

Boomer55 · 28/11/2024 17:08

Tenant farmers won't be affected as they own nothing.

When my uncle died, his money was left from what he'd built up, through his business. Not farming.

i had to pay 40% IHT immediately, no reduced rate, or 10 years to pay.

Why do farmers think they are special? They voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, which has cost the country a minimum of £100 billion. It has to be paid for. The fact that they have now realised Brexit has made them worse off is not our problem.

Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.

Best they suck up IHT as the rest of us have to. 🙄

Tenant farmers are likely to be seriously affected!
If you had read the thread you would know that!

And I agree having to pay IHT immediately is totally wrong. Why are you not campaigning about it?

As to why Farmers are special if you had read the thread you would know!

OP posts:
MarkingBad · 28/11/2024 19:15

cardibach · 28/11/2024 18:40

I dislike him, but I can applaud good things. He didn’t march on parliament about it though, did he?

Neither did I, I sat here and wrote about it across several fora because I saw how much bollocks was being written by people who never worked in a rural industry in their life. We can suport causes in different ways.