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The FACTS about the farming IHT issues

343 replies

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:52

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:27

@MarkingBad
''Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.
Surely this is down to HMRC and ultimately successive governments who knew full well about the land tax loophole and yet kept it open because their wealthy party donors were using it?''

The biggest issue as I see it is that until this point what demonstrating, camaigning etc did these Farmers do while land prices soared way above inflation.

Did they turn away these private investors buying their land to use as tax dodges or carbon offset and offer to only fellow farmers. No they took the money from the highest bidder. I get that, I understand the reasoning. But please don't try to play the poor farmer when it isn't going your way.

MarkingBad · 28/11/2024 19:35

quantumbutterfly · 28/11/2024 18:49

I also thought Clarkson was a terrible arse, but watching the Clarkson's Farm series shed a new light on him.
I was already aware of issues in the agriculture/food industry and glad he was bringing it to a wider audience, or at least an audience that would never listen to 'the archers'.
Same with the yorkshire shepherdess woman, though people seem more interested in her love life than the in and outs of her working life.

I don't tend to watch the farm progs and only caught Clarksons farm because someone I know is a fan of his. I was really suprised to see the honesty of the despair.

I can't watch much of it, I am reminded of too many times coming home shaking with exhaustion mental and physical. The terrible solitude (and I like my own company). The times I had to go back and argue about money not paid correctly and knowing that they hadn't enough and were waiting on their invoices to be paid too. The sitting in the dark and cold car outside my home because of finding several decapitated dog ravaged sheep bodies yet again and staring into nothingness. If I went in and turned the light on I might have to face having brought it home with me.

Yet I took it all home just the same.

There were good times too, it wasn't all awful of course, but I was and to an extent still am tied into this calling and there is nothing I can do to break free of it

cardibach · 28/11/2024 19:36

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:08

He was at the rally last week 🤷🏻‍♀️ he has been speaking to media about it since the issue was first raised.
Seriously nobody can do the right thing here!

He was at the rally last week for himself

MarkingBad · 28/11/2024 19:39

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:27

@MarkingBad
''Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.
Surely this is down to HMRC and ultimately successive governments who knew full well about the land tax loophole and yet kept it open because their wealthy party donors were using it?''

The biggest issue as I see it is that until this point what demonstrating, camaigning etc did these Farmers do while land prices soared way above inflation.

Did they turn away these private investors buying their land to use as tax dodges or carbon offset and offer to only fellow farmers. No they took the money from the highest bidder. I get that, I understand the reasoning. But please don't try to play the poor farmer when it isn't going your way.

Edited

You are welcome to your opinion, I respect that you speak it, but you know absolutely nothing about me or my motivations so laying that on me is disingenous and unworthy of you.

I hope other posters realise that but they too are welcome to their opinions.

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:42

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:27

@MarkingBad
''Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.
Surely this is down to HMRC and ultimately successive governments who knew full well about the land tax loophole and yet kept it open because their wealthy party donors were using it?''

The biggest issue as I see it is that until this point what demonstrating, camaigning etc did these Farmers do while land prices soared way above inflation.

Did they turn away these private investors buying their land to use as tax dodges or carbon offset and offer to only fellow farmers. No they took the money from the highest bidder. I get that, I understand the reasoning. But please don't try to play the poor farmer when it isn't going your way.

Edited

@ARealitycheck you are really sounding increasingly desperate to find fault with farmers. Which is fine as long as you yourself are 100% self sufficient in food. If not you're just a hypocrite!

Stop calling it a tax loophole. It wasn't a tax loophole it was deliberately policy to prevent the destruction of small family farms. You have had it explained to you repeatedly why having non farming land owners letting out their land is massively important and beneficial to farming.

Farmers have as much or as little control as anyone selling their property as to whom purchase it. Yes some have made huge amounts from the sale of land to developers over the years. That was their choice to make and doesn't mean the rest of farmers need to suffer because of your jealousy.

This is the last time I'm going to respond to you. You clearly have an alternative agenda to promote and are going to deliberately misrepresent and twist everything that is said to you.

OP posts:
ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:43

MarkingBad · 28/11/2024 19:39

You are welcome to your opinion, I respect that you speak it, but you know absolutely nothing about me or my motivations so laying that on me is disingenous and unworthy of you.

I hope other posters realise that but they too are welcome to their opinions.

Apologies I wrote that incorrectly. I meant the farming community that didn't speak out and are now complaining.

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:44

@cardibach no he wasn't. As he has said numerous times he is still in a position to completely avoid this tax. He can afford to put in a trust and still pay no IHT. Which is probably what he will do. He is also young enough to gift it on to his children.

So no he was not there for himself at all.

OP posts:
cardibach · 28/11/2024 19:45

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:44

@cardibach no he wasn't. As he has said numerous times he is still in a position to completely avoid this tax. He can afford to put in a trust and still pay no IHT. Which is probably what he will do. He is also young enough to gift it on to his children.

So no he was not there for himself at all.

And yet…this is the first march he’s been part of in a public way.

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:48

@notanothernamechange24

''You have had it explained to you repeatedly why having non farming land owners letting out their land is massively important and beneficial to farming.''

Tosh. Most people would rather see the land farmed by those who own it. Why should somebody with wealth hold on to it for generations and the poor guy working it never getting a chance to buy.

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:48

@cardibach what other marches have their been? 🤔
This was the only one this far! No other organised rallies have taken place! What was he supposed to do, march down Whitehall everyday on his own? 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP posts:
quantumbutterfly · 28/11/2024 20:25

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:27

@MarkingBad
''Allowing Clarkson and Dyson (both of whom said they'd bought farms to avoid tax) has done them no favours at all.
Surely this is down to HMRC and ultimately successive governments who knew full well about the land tax loophole and yet kept it open because their wealthy party donors were using it?''

The biggest issue as I see it is that until this point what demonstrating, camaigning etc did these Farmers do while land prices soared way above inflation.

Did they turn away these private investors buying their land to use as tax dodges or carbon offset and offer to only fellow farmers. No they took the money from the highest bidder. I get that, I understand the reasoning. But please don't try to play the poor farmer when it isn't going your way.

Edited

If you buy English tomatoes or strawberries out of season there's a good chance they came from Dyson.
His engineering experts could be something UK agriculture would benefit from. Maybe he'll become like a modern day Jethro Tull.

cardibach · 28/11/2024 20:27

notanothernamechange24 · 28/11/2024 19:48

@cardibach what other marches have their been? 🤔
This was the only one this far! No other organised rallies have taken place! What was he supposed to do, march down Whitehall everyday on his own? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Well, there was this one in March…

https://bsky.app/profile/sturdyalex.bsky.social/post/3lbwl7xvilc2t

Riddledwithguilt · 28/11/2024 23:49

I live on a sheep farm in rural south east.. I've NEVER met a poor farmer.

I've met plenty who claim to make no money from their farm and yet... everyone I know (probably about 15 farms) have 3 generations of family working and living on their non profit making businesses...

MarkingBad · 29/11/2024 00:54

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:43

Apologies I wrote that incorrectly. I meant the farming community that didn't speak out and are now complaining.

Thank you for the clarification

Dimpliy · 29/11/2024 03:51

I agree with Starmer on this issue. Farmers who do their tax planning will be fine with a 20% IHT tax. They get a discount of 20% on the tax rate and they have 10 years to pay it interest free.

Letsbe · 29/11/2024 05:23

I understand you feel veey strongly about this and these debates get heated. Im my opinion there is rarely one reason for anyone taking their own life. Its more complex than that.

Winter2020 · 29/11/2024 09:15

ARealitycheck · 28/11/2024 19:48

@notanothernamechange24

''You have had it explained to you repeatedly why having non farming land owners letting out their land is massively important and beneficial to farming.''

Tosh. Most people would rather see the land farmed by those who own it. Why should somebody with wealth hold on to it for generations and the poor guy working it never getting a chance to buy.

I put a 4 million £ farm into a mortgage calculator.
An interest only mortgage would cost around 15k EACH MONTH. After the 30 year mortgage the 4 million purchase price would still be due.

The interest on the loan would be more than a tenant farmer earns in total so how could they ever buy it?

If a tenant farmer chooses to work the land and make their living who are you to decide they shouldn't do that unless they can buy it?

The FACTS about the farming IHT issues
The FACTS about the farming IHT issues
notanothernamechange24 · 29/11/2024 10:38

From Farmers Weekly

The FACTS about the farming IHT issues
OP posts:
Dimpliy · 29/11/2024 13:46

No one is owed a way of life.

Farmers are not going to get much sympathy when they can sell their farms for millions and get a new way of life.

I think we need to see the impact of this for a few years. See how many farms actually sell up.

notanothernamechange24 · 29/11/2024 14:45

Dimpliy · 29/11/2024 13:46

No one is owed a way of life.

Farmers are not going to get much sympathy when they can sell their farms for millions and get a new way of life.

I think we need to see the impact of this for a few years. See how many farms actually sell up.

@Dimpliy presumably you are fully self sufficient in food and don't rely on a farmer for any of your daily needs?

Because that's a hell of a risk to take. Once farmers and farms are gone they are gone for good.

No farmers. No food. It really is that simple!

OP posts:
MarkingBad · 29/11/2024 15:20

Letsbe · 29/11/2024 05:23

I understand you feel veey strongly about this and these debates get heated. Im my opinion there is rarely one reason for anyone taking their own life. Its more complex than that.

That's very true.

This isn't a 9-5 job with weekends and bank holidays and monthly pay, this is a business and like other businesses in other industries it is immensely stressful any day of the week.

All it needs sometimes is one more straw.

ARealitycheck · 29/11/2024 18:16

Please rephrase that. No FARMS no food. There is absolutely nothing by way of proof that these family farms will cease to exist, Just that their ownership may change. The repetive doom mongering rhetoric being put out by wealthy farm owners has no basis in fact.

ARealitycheck · 29/11/2024 18:29

@Winter2020

It is highly unlikely that a tenant farmer is even comprehending a £4m farm. It is incredibly unlikely that a £4m farm is being farmed by a tenant.

It is agreed by most sensible thinking people that farmland has a value way above inflation or it's actual production value. Removing the incentives for big business to shelter inheritances or gain green credentials is needed. This should/could bring the land value back down to allow tenant farmers to purchase.

Dependent on location land has increased by around 35% in the previous ten years. Where inflation over the same period is around 3.5%. Something is clearly going wrong in agriculture, if at the same time farmers are claiming poverty.

quantumbutterfly · 29/11/2024 19:06

ARealitycheck · 29/11/2024 18:29

@Winter2020

It is highly unlikely that a tenant farmer is even comprehending a £4m farm. It is incredibly unlikely that a £4m farm is being farmed by a tenant.

It is agreed by most sensible thinking people that farmland has a value way above inflation or it's actual production value. Removing the incentives for big business to shelter inheritances or gain green credentials is needed. This should/could bring the land value back down to allow tenant farmers to purchase.

Dependent on location land has increased by around 35% in the previous ten years. Where inflation over the same period is around 3.5%. Something is clearly going wrong in agriculture, if at the same time farmers are claiming poverty.

@ARealitycheck Something is clearly going wrong in agriculture, if at the same time farmers are claiming poverty.

If you read the thread you might get some idea what that is.

ARealitycheck · 29/11/2024 19:25

quantumbutterfly · 29/11/2024 19:06

@ARealitycheck Something is clearly going wrong in agriculture, if at the same time farmers are claiming poverty.

If you read the thread you might get some idea what that is.

Yes the problems are several. Actual farmers are priced out the market to buy agricultural land. Reduction of tax breaks may help alleviate that and bring land values back down.

Secondly, Farmers are going after the wrong people. Every business should be productive with what the end product is and it's financial stability. This includes paying a fair level of taxation across all industries. The oft claimed cry of 'the supermarkets are squeezing us' is partially true. If that is the case, why isn't farming involving the government to reduce eg Tesco's profits by paying more for the produce. The simple reason is that would upset the farm subsidy apple cart.

The final unplatable truth for some family farms, is that they just aren't cost effective in their current form. Working a field like Dad did, and his father before and so on may not be the best thing with modern equipment and techniques. Fresh blood and new thinking may actually benefit that land.

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