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The FACTS about the farming IHT issues

343 replies

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:52

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

OP posts:
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13
FelixtheAardvark · 29/11/2024 19:29

As a former IFA I have to say that your post is long on opinion and not so long on FACTS.

Here's a FACT for you. None of the largest owners of farmland in the UK have taken part in any of the protests. They all took steps years ago to make sure their land was protected from IHT.

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 07:19

notanothernamechange24 · 29/11/2024 14:45

@Dimpliy presumably you are fully self sufficient in food and don't rely on a farmer for any of your daily needs?

Because that's a hell of a risk to take. Once farmers and farms are gone they are gone for good.

No farmers. No food. It really is that simple!

Oh do stop this emotional blackmail. Selling a farm doesn't mean no food.

As I said, we should see the impact of this change.

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 10:10

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 07:19

Oh do stop this emotional blackmail. Selling a farm doesn't mean no food.

As I said, we should see the impact of this change.

Edited

What will you see?
Do you know where your food comes from? What affects availability and price?

Most people are so detached from food production, processing and distribution.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmenvfru/622/report.html#heading-0

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 15:40

@Dimpliy selling one farm doesn't equal no food no.
But selling hundreds - if you think that's not going to affect food security you're delusional.

This is not emotional blackmail in the slightest. It's simple cause and effect.

If there is nobody to grow crops or raise animals then there simply won't be any. It's not rocket science 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP posts:
notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 15:44

FelixtheAardvark · 29/11/2024 19:29

As a former IFA I have to say that your post is long on opinion and not so long on FACTS.

Here's a FACT for you. None of the largest owners of farmland in the UK have taken part in any of the protests. They all took steps years ago to make sure their land was protected from IHT.

Edited

Of course they took steps years ago! Most of them will have numerous assets beyond the agricultural land they own. Or are wealthy enough to leave it in trust. So have been able to avoid paying IHT.
Which is why this change is nonsensical as it doesn't touch the big boys and goes straight for family farms and businesses

OP posts:
ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 18:15

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 15:40

@Dimpliy selling one farm doesn't equal no food no.
But selling hundreds - if you think that's not going to affect food security you're delusional.

This is not emotional blackmail in the slightest. It's simple cause and effect.

If there is nobody to grow crops or raise animals then there simply won't be any. It's not rocket science 🤷🏻‍♀️

You keep implying the land will stop being farmed if sold. The number of farms affected is unlikely to mean hundreds selling up. There is no basis for any of your assumptions as being fact.

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:26

About 100 acres of land round here that was grazing sheep and cattle are up for sale, it will almost certainly be land banked and built on, we already have several new 'villages' on what was agricultural land - including arable( some of it prone to inundation in wet weather).
This has not only lost productive land for food but also several hundred acres of habitat for wildlife.

This is being repeated all over the UK.

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:28

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 15:40

@Dimpliy selling one farm doesn't equal no food no.
But selling hundreds - if you think that's not going to affect food security you're delusional.

This is not emotional blackmail in the slightest. It's simple cause and effect.

If there is nobody to grow crops or raise animals then there simply won't be any. It's not rocket science 🤷🏻‍♀️

I didn’t say one farm. I mean that if someone can’t make a farm business work then it should be sold to someone who can.

As I said, let’s wait and see how many actually sell up.

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:30

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:26

About 100 acres of land round here that was grazing sheep and cattle are up for sale, it will almost certainly be land banked and built on, we already have several new 'villages' on what was agricultural land - including arable( some of it prone to inundation in wet weather).
This has not only lost productive land for food but also several hundred acres of habitat for wildlife.

This is being repeated all over the UK.

Aren’t there laws against building on agri land?

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 18:32

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 10:10

What will you see?
Do you know where your food comes from? What affects availability and price?

Most people are so detached from food production, processing and distribution.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmenvfru/622/report.html#heading-0

If you read your attached link. It shows what most of us already know. The UK has been food resilient. We do have issues with diet and junk food. And that making the best use of the land is important.

With regard to the current discussion, ensuring our agricultural land produces as much as it can while looking after it doesn't mean we must have the status quo. Especially with land ownership being used as a financial protecting device.

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:37

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:30

Aren’t there laws against building on agri land?

In theory yes, in practice there is pressure on authorities to build and developers have patience and good lawyers.

https://windsorpatania.com/learn/planning/how-to-build-on-agricultural-land/

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:37

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 10:10

What will you see?
Do you know where your food comes from? What affects availability and price?

Most people are so detached from food production, processing and distribution.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmenvfru/622/report.html#heading-0

See whether the government is right that it affects a limited number of farms.

I don’t know why you and OP keep posting about food prices. No one is saying farms should die away.

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:40

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 18:32

If you read your attached link. It shows what most of us already know. The UK has been food resilient. We do have issues with diet and junk food. And that making the best use of the land is important.

With regard to the current discussion, ensuring our agricultural land produces as much as it can while looking after it doesn't mean we must have the status quo. Especially with land ownership being used as a financial protecting device.

Amazing. Anyone who works in the industry is concerned because they know what it actually takes to produce that 'resilience.'

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 18:43

@Dimpliy no let's not wait and see 🙄 let's prevent it from happening in the first place. It's a predictable outcome of this situation which can easily be resolved.

And who do you think is going to buy the land if farmers start being forced to sell up? Other farmers? Not likely! how are they supposed to raise that sort of capital? As previous poster has already demonstrated even an interest only mortgage will be way more than the farm will earn per year!
Meanwhile you have big business looking to buy land for the carbon credits so they can continue to pollute the planet with the junk they produce and do absolutely bugger all to make any improvements in their own emissions!

This is bad policy which has been rushed out and not properly thought through and targets the wrong people.

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ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 18:45

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:40

Amazing. Anyone who works in the industry is concerned because they know what it actually takes to produce that 'resilience.'

As previously stated. We have this constant claim that it costs more than selling price for most farmers. I'd say that is likely untrue or they wouldn't exist. We should also consider, would fresh blood with new ideas actually improve the productivity v cost for some land.

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:48

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:37

See whether the government is right that it affects a limited number of farms.

I don’t know why you and OP keep posting about food prices. No one is saying farms should die away.

It costs dairy farmers in the UK more to produce milk than you pay for it. It's easy to talk about fair trade on the other side of the world but not on your doorstep.

Would you prefer to import all UK food, with the unseen costs that involves (supply chain issues, working conditions, food safety and authenticity, food miles).

UK farmers need our support, who clapped for them during COVID?

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 18:51

notanothernamechange24 · 30/11/2024 18:43

@Dimpliy no let's not wait and see 🙄 let's prevent it from happening in the first place. It's a predictable outcome of this situation which can easily be resolved.

And who do you think is going to buy the land if farmers start being forced to sell up? Other farmers? Not likely! how are they supposed to raise that sort of capital? As previous poster has already demonstrated even an interest only mortgage will be way more than the farm will earn per year!
Meanwhile you have big business looking to buy land for the carbon credits so they can continue to pollute the planet with the junk they produce and do absolutely bugger all to make any improvements in their own emissions!

This is bad policy which has been rushed out and not properly thought through and targets the wrong people.

All supposition and scare mongering from you. As a different previous poster pointed out. Land prices have increased way above inflation. One place I read had doubled in value ofver two years. These increases has happened especially in this last five years. Around half have come from private investors using it not only for green credentials but also sheltering inheritances.

Removing these benefits to speculators is incredibly important to agriculture but something the farming community haven't been very vocal about when it was benefiting them.

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:52

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:48

It costs dairy farmers in the UK more to produce milk than you pay for it. It's easy to talk about fair trade on the other side of the world but not on your doorstep.

Would you prefer to import all UK food, with the unseen costs that involves (supply chain issues, working conditions, food safety and authenticity, food miles).

UK farmers need our support, who clapped for them during COVID?

But they get subsidies. And I would pay more for milk if need be.

Elsvieta · 30/11/2024 18:52

It seems to me that all farmland should be state owned, and all farmers tenant farmers. They should apply as if for any other job, with required qualifications (such as a degree from agricultural college), a fixed salary (perhaps with some bonuses for productivity), generous pensions and mandatory retirement at 60. We could have more joined-up thinking across regions on how land is used - how much for food production, how much for planting trees etc to reduce flood risk, how much set-aside such as wildflower land to benefit insect life etc, how much for housing (no more farmers flogging unsuitable land to the worst kind of greedy developers, because it's the only way to pay the bills - just social housing where it's needed, not-for-profit building). All land used for the good of society at large, not used to hoard wealth, and all farmers making a living regardless of the ups and downs of bad weather and everything else that makes their income so unpredictable. Then some legislation forcing supermarkets to pay what the food's actually worth, and a ban on importing anything we can produce enough of here.

What am I missing?

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:55

Elsvieta · 30/11/2024 18:52

It seems to me that all farmland should be state owned, and all farmers tenant farmers. They should apply as if for any other job, with required qualifications (such as a degree from agricultural college), a fixed salary (perhaps with some bonuses for productivity), generous pensions and mandatory retirement at 60. We could have more joined-up thinking across regions on how land is used - how much for food production, how much for planting trees etc to reduce flood risk, how much set-aside such as wildflower land to benefit insect life etc, how much for housing (no more farmers flogging unsuitable land to the worst kind of greedy developers, because it's the only way to pay the bills - just social housing where it's needed, not-for-profit building). All land used for the good of society at large, not used to hoard wealth, and all farmers making a living regardless of the ups and downs of bad weather and everything else that makes their income so unpredictable. Then some legislation forcing supermarkets to pay what the food's actually worth, and a ban on importing anything we can produce enough of here.

What am I missing?

A knowledge of historical precedent.

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 18:58

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 18:48

It costs dairy farmers in the UK more to produce milk than you pay for it. It's easy to talk about fair trade on the other side of the world but not on your doorstep.

Would you prefer to import all UK food, with the unseen costs that involves (supply chain issues, working conditions, food safety and authenticity, food miles).

UK farmers need our support, who clapped for them during COVID?

Ah yes this old line that is trotted out any time a Farmer needs to put his hand in his pocket. If they are consistently running at a loss then they shouldn't be in business. Don't blame the public because they signed up to deals giving all profit to eg tesco. Don't blame us when over-production of milk started the drop in price during the 90's. Look at the cost effectivenss of dairy compared to the land for feed and grazing that could produce something more nutritious and cost effective.

twistyizzy · 30/11/2024 18:58

Elsvieta · 30/11/2024 18:52

It seems to me that all farmland should be state owned, and all farmers tenant farmers. They should apply as if for any other job, with required qualifications (such as a degree from agricultural college), a fixed salary (perhaps with some bonuses for productivity), generous pensions and mandatory retirement at 60. We could have more joined-up thinking across regions on how land is used - how much for food production, how much for planting trees etc to reduce flood risk, how much set-aside such as wildflower land to benefit insect life etc, how much for housing (no more farmers flogging unsuitable land to the worst kind of greedy developers, because it's the only way to pay the bills - just social housing where it's needed, not-for-profit building). All land used for the good of society at large, not used to hoard wealth, and all farmers making a living regardless of the ups and downs of bad weather and everything else that makes their income so unpredictable. Then some legislation forcing supermarkets to pay what the food's actually worth, and a ban on importing anything we can produce enough of here.

What am I missing?

Jesus Christ, you want politicians to control food production? Hasn't worked well for any communist country so far has it? For the general population at least. Food production is the last thing that should be state controlled

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 19:01

Dimpliy · 30/11/2024 18:52

But they get subsidies. And I would pay more for milk if need be.

Then do so, it is needed. Find out where your food has come from and vote with your pocket.

If you care about farmers or animal welfare, find out where your food comes from and what it takes to produce it.

quantumbutterfly · 30/11/2024 19:04

ARealitycheck · 30/11/2024 18:58

Ah yes this old line that is trotted out any time a Farmer needs to put his hand in his pocket. If they are consistently running at a loss then they shouldn't be in business. Don't blame the public because they signed up to deals giving all profit to eg tesco. Don't blame us when over-production of milk started the drop in price during the 90's. Look at the cost effectivenss of dairy compared to the land for feed and grazing that could produce something more nutritious and cost effective.

😂you are Alan Sugar aren't you?

OP posts: