To ask if people today don’t agree with ivf?!

[Yaerry]

or am I just naive? Watched the new documentary about Jean Purdy and I’m surprised there was so much push back at the time. It’s made me wonder if one day surrogacy will be more accepted? I thought ivf was just a standard thing now that wasn’t controversial.

@SerenePeach I'm not I'm replying to the posters who think lung cancer shouldn't be treated because it's exactly the same as infertility. It's so insensitive (at best) to compare the two. That's what I take exception to.

And you and others are acting like not having kids is automatically devastating to everyone, when it just isn't. And implying it's abnormal not to want kids just because you're mad that not everyone is upset about it.

What?

Because she does. Like lots of other donor conceived people. Biology matters to many people.

You're implying that her feelings are in some way wrong which is offensive.

I don't know what your problem is but I'm certainly not mad that not everyone is upset about being infertile.

If you're not upset then good for you. But acting like it's abnormal to actually want your own children and to be bereft that you can't have them is disingenuous. It's perfectly normal to want your own children, and I'm sure you actually know that. The whole point of every living creature on the planet is to reproduce, we're hard wired to want children so it can't possibly be a surprise to you that it's upsetting to most people when that is taken from them.

I'm not implying it's abnormal to not want children. You're just making that up. It's fine to not want children but it is absolutely deliberate ignorance to pretend it's weird for people to be upset about infertility and that the absence of children is fine just because you have adult relatives. You don't get to tell people it's not a big deal and they should move on just because you're not bothered.

Oh, come over. No one has said, or implied, that.
And a person is allowed to feel grief, devastation, or whatever emotion they have, at not being able to have children. You don't need to meet sone arbitrary, and imaginary, suffering test to satisfy you, or anyone else who thinks those emotions are misplaced. It's bloody insulting and invalidating to tell someone their feelings are wrong because they're not dying. Why is it that anti-choice, anti-ivf people are so condemning of those who seek a different family than you? The sanctimony is nauseating.

I don't know why you don't have kids, if you posted I missed it, or have forgotten, but good for you if it's not an issue for you.

No, I'm not. If you read, I wrote it's curious.

Hate to break the news, but expect a lot more donor conceived children because THANK GOD science has enabled it.

No one is suggesting that cancer shouldn't be treated 🙄. People are countering the argument that we shouldn't treat life style choices, go against nature, play God etc because the NHS does all those things.

No one is cross because you are happy to be childless, people are cross because it has been suggested that they shouldn't be upset and shouldn't try perfectly legal and proven treatments than could bring them the child/ren they so crave, or at the very least the peace of mind that they have taken steps to try and have children and so can move on without a perpetual sense of what might have been.

I mentioned a close friend died of cancer, it was actually lung cancer. Non-smokers small cell carcinoma at 42.

Her struggle with infertility was awful, but she was so thankful to have that beautiful daughter beside her when she passed.

Infertility was awful. Dying, was awful.

No one thinks it's the same thing.

People are just noting that for a great deal of people, infertility also causes extreme suffering.

I do not class needing ivf on the nhs as the same as someone needing cancer treatment of course. My objection was to the poster who said that infertility was just a natural process of controlling the population. My response was then well should we therefore assume that cancer is the answer to controlling the population snd that cancer treatment should not exist.

I think ivf treatment should be means tested to ensure that every couple who cannot afford it get their chance and those who are well off pay. At the moment you can be wealthy, living in the right area and get it free whilst another couple who cannot afford it are denied simply because of their postcode.

Why should only some people have to pay for IVF when others get it free and people aren't expected to pay for other NHS treatment?

It should either be free for all or no one.

So people who are upset about having fertility issues are allowed to be upset: And a person is allowed to feel grief, devastation, or whatever emotion they have, at not being able to have children. You don't need to meet sone arbitrary, and imaginary, suffering test to satisfy you, or anyone else who thinks those emotions are misplaced. It's bloody insulting and invalidating to tell someone their feelings are wrong because they're not dying.

But people who struggle with knowing they were conceived by donor sperm are not and may be mentally.ill: Curious. I wonder why she has had so much trouble. Perhaps some mental health issues

Makes sense

@SerenePeach

I only say that because that would ensure that all couples who couldn’t afford it got it. It doesn’t work like that currently as it depends on local authorities. Couple who could afford to pay should do which would leave more money for those that couldn’t.

Sorry if I’m being dim but don’t understand this.

It’s very sad about your friend though not a surprise as such as I suppose there are always going to be statistical anomalies - even if her parents did everything “right” (told her very young, chose a non - anonymous donor she could contact if she wanted to etc) , she obviously still has a right to feel what she feels. I really hope she can overcome it and has a happy life.

I suppose it’s the same as when someones parents choose to divorce/separate (a much more common situation), many people deal with it very well, but for some it’s completely devastating and they feel it’s wrecked their life - possibly it depends on personality type too? (rather than mental health as such).

It’s just very surprising that you say most of her donor conceived friends feel that way as well - do you happen to know if they were also told young and had non - anonymous donors too?

I think if so, that would be very surprising to learn - as the published research over the last 20 years or so shows that the vast majority of donor conceived young adults do at least as well emotionally, academically etc as non-donor conceived young adults - and indeed often better than those who have had family breakups (which is a bit of a smack on the nose to those on this thread who are against donor conception/IVF for single parents 🤣). Obviously that research focuses on donor conceived people who were born after the changes on donor anonymity and on “telling” early though.

IVF success rates aren't that low when you consider a fertile couple will only have a 25% chance of getting pregnant in their first month trying.

There are a heck of a lot of IVF success stories for it to have a low success rate.

But surely that logic applies to all treatment then, should people be having private treatment if they can afford it to leave the NHS treatment for those that can't? No other treatment is means tested.

We all pay for the NHS we should all be treated the same.

We spent 30k on our IVF because the waiting list was too long in our area. We couldn't really afford it, my dad spent his life savings on it. We shouldn't have had to spend that just because it was available to us, it wasn't even our money. We wanted to have a nice wedding but couldn't afford a wedding because we spent all our money on IVF, just like someone who has that money saved for a deposit for a home for their children to live in shouldn't have to spend their deposit on IVF and be stuck renting so that other people can have IVF for free. No one can really afford IVF, it quickly becomes a massively expensive thing that eats your savings and assets and no one should have to do that whilst the treatment is free to others.

Yes, that seems to be the thinking doesn’t it. There must be something wrong with my friend and others she’s met since trying to help herself through this for not thinking that having a sperm donor as a biological father is fantastic or even just fine. It’s very offensive.

Oh, how Sherlock Holmes of you. 🙄
I did not say, nor mean to imply:
But people who struggle with knowing they were conceived by donor sperm are not and may be mentally.ill (Your words).
I was asking about a specific person a poster described knowing because I was curious.

The smugness of the "gotcha" people is relentless. 🤮

@ItCantHurtYou

Yes but if you’d been means tested then you would not have needed to pay because as you say you could not afford it.

I also had ivf privately twice as by the time I reached the top of the list I was too old at 34 cut off.

Asking hypothetically then, if there was one pot of money for someone’s ivf and someone’s life saving cancer treatment, who should that pot of money be given to?

I certainly don't think means testing IVF is a precedent that should be set within the NHS.

You start with IVF what next?
Means test GP appointments?
Means test physiotherapy?

The UK cannot expect higher rate tax payers to continue proping up services if they aren't going to benefit from those services too.
That will in effect force working people to have private health care and zero interest in the quality of service the NHS provides.

You don’t hear so much about the failures, that’s why it seems there are more success stories.

You implied she must have something wrong with her to have a problem with being donor conceived, as if it’s fact that donor conception is a good thing. There are different opinions on it and as someone that is the donor conceived person, she is against it.

I don’t believe in god and I also don’t think all scientific breakthroughs are good ones.

Women have shared their stories on MN and this thread, too. Maybe it depends how much a person is looking for info. 🤷‍♀️
An example, but different subject, is I had never heard about RSV and the dangers, until last year. Now that I have children I'm picking up on different children-related issues. iykwim
On the ivf topic, I have researched it in the past and did find success/failure rates online along with "natural" conception stats. 🤷‍♀️
A mum at my dc's school shared with me she went the ivf route after having had cancer and was grateful and felt lucky it worked out. I took that to mean that her post-cancer body accepted it and that the stats were in her favour.

There is one pot of money. It is already divided up between all the different treatments required. Should we be dropping mental health treatment for cancer treatment to have more money? Or physio? Anything that isn't lethal should be stopped to spend all the money on things that are lethal? Where do you draw theline? How far does it go when you're deciding which treatments are less important than cancer?

@SerenePeach You are missing the point

What is the point then if it's not that cancer is more important than IVF?