Assisted dying bill (TW assisted suicide discussion)

[Onand]

I appreciate this is a divisive subject and a sensitive topic for many. Please avoid this thread if you find any discussion of suicide, death, trauma, terminal illness, cancer and faith triggering.

I’m curious to know how others are feeling about this subject, from what I can see there isn’t a lot of discussion, is this a MNHQ decision or an indifference from posters?

My opinion and views on this potential landmark decision are based on my horrifying experience of watching and waiting for my mum to pass from end stage cancer several years ago.

For over four years she fought advanced cancer, she took every treatment and trial offered to her. She endured major abdominal surgery, many blood transfusions, multiple rounds of chemo, lost her hair several times, her bones started to crumble causing excruciating back pain, severe abdominal swelling, double nephrostomy as her kidneys failed, multiple lesions on her brain that caused debilitating headaches and personality changes, her teeth and bones were decaying due to a calcium disorder, various hospital stays for infections, the list goes on.

Truly the most hideous nightmare cancer ‘journey’ anyone could ever imagine, it always felt like one step forward and two backwards and yet she carried on without much fuss or sign of fear to protect the family and herself from the true horrors of suffering.

She never wanted to die and so she never gave up or gave in- that was until the last few weeks of her life when she had no choice. The immense damage and toll cancer had done to her physical body was too much to survive any longer so the last infection she had took her consciousness and so began the final horrifying curveball that cancer has up its evil sleeve, this one is for the loved ones though, because now you have to wait and watch for the end to come. Anyone who has endured this knows exactly what I am talking about, a horror that truly brings home the meaning of hell of earth.

If the assisted dying bill was around whilst my mum was alive I know she would have never entertained an early death whilst she was still in control and able to fight, but I do know that her love for the family would have also meant she would never have wanted us to endure that final two weeks of watching and waiting for her body to shut down if it could have been avoided and she was able to specify what was to happen at the end. There was no possibility of her ever getting better or a miraculous recovery, death was very inevitable and a certainty but we still had to sit and watch, doing oral care and leaving the room as they checked for bed sores and did secretion suction. The only thing I could do to protect and help her was the make sure she was undoubtedly unaware of what was happening as she feared death and leaving us behind- the thought of her being remotely aware meant we were constantly asking the nurses for more and more sedation.

If this bill gives patients the choice to avoid the hideously evil ending of a terminal illness and the following ptsd that impacts the loved ones left behind then it is an opportunity I strongly agree with. Watching a loved one die an agonising death is soul destroying and something I hope no one has to ever endure if said loved one could choose to avoid.

How do others feel?

Yes truly horrible. I’ve spoken to quite a few friends who’ve supported middle aged friends or partners with terminal cancer and the story is pretty similar for us all.

@Onand What's the medical reasons for assisted dying? You didn't respond earlier.

A few posters have mentioned religion. I've read a lot of threads on this topic over the past couple of years and I cannot remember reading a single post on any of them arguing against assisted dying for religious reasons

The lack of mention in posts doesn't mean that the debate's not attracting attention among churches,@PencilsInSpace, and with the influence these people enjoy I'd be highly surprised if this doesn't inform some of the objections

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/11/24/assisted-dying-bill-religious-leaders-letter-duty-to-die/

Apologies for missing your question. I think the medical reasons for assisted dying are clear when you read the proposed bill. You can read it at the bottom of page 5 onwards.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/59-01/0012/240012.pdf

My Nan was recently in a care home. It cost thousands of pounds every month and every person that was in there seemed like they were just being kept alive until they weren't. The vast majority had zero quality of life. The whole thing was incredibly depressing and it seemed completely pointless and cruel. I was shocked at how depressing it was and hadn't expected that at all. This was a "nice" care home as well. Some of the others my mum viewed were significantly worse. The staff were caring and the place was clean etc but it didn't matter, it still felt like we were just keeping people slive with no quality of life for nothing. When I first visited I said two things to my husband, never put me in a care home, if i have deteriorated that much that I need FT care, just take me out, you have my permission. The other thing I said, was my god you wouldn't treat an animal like that. If I went to the vet and said I wanted to keep my pet alive when it had dementia, or couldn't eat, or wash itself, or walk, or engage properly with anyone, they would tell me off for being cruel and they'd be right. Why we feel life is always sacrosanct in humans when they is little to no quality of life or that person has gone due to dementia, I have absolutely no idea. Its not about a "good death", its about not prolonging life when for all intents and purposes that person is gone already.

Why we feel life is always sacrosanct in humans when they is little to no quality of life or that person has gone due to dementia, I have absolutely no idea. Its not about a "good death", its about not prolonging life when for all intents and purposes that person is gone already.

This is what I think as well. Everyone dies. Western culture is so obsessed with prolonging life at all costs, regardless of the quality of life.

I agree @CrazyAndSagittarius it is taboo to think that sometimes death is preferable to endless suffering in service of the idea of the sanctity of life. I see the same at the other end of life in abortion debate. I am sometimes uncomfortable with the compromise that is abortion but it is far more preferable than life of a foetus at all cost and I feel the same about assisted dying. It makes me very uncomfortable and there are many many good arguments against assisted suicide but there are too many lived experiences pointing to a need for assisted suicide than to ban it out of hand.

@Onand
good question
theyre not ever so bright …. But are definitely hanging around for the money.
my friend has the will all sorted and social are aware … but the elderly person passes all the mental capacity tests so not much anyone can do, except monitor the situation.

@Onand And where is the line drawn?

When the patient is deemed a potential murder victim in the eyes of the medical professional who is overseeing the death if they suspect coercion or pressure or the patient doesn’t meet the criteria of having an incurable diagnosis where death isn’t reasonably expected within 6 months.

@Onand How will they always detect it?

And you don't support it for mental health illnesses?

There’s no way that mental health issues would EVER be used as a criteria……

That’s inconceivable in a civilised society where mental health services are prioritised, funded and accessible to all. EXACTLY the situation we have in the UK….🙄

@ThisAquaCrow I totally agree.

And what if someone is being coerced and the doctor doesn't detect it? That's one case too many. But what would be the fallout? Would you prosecute a doctor forced to kill people?

Won’t ever happen. And even if it does, does it really matter? A few dozen or hundred’s of elderly or disabled dead people being coerced isn’t that big a deal surely? Have you SEEN how much a care home costs these days?

@ThisAquaCrow I was under CAHMS aged 4, anti depressants aged 10 followed by Quetiapine a couple of years later. Very suicidal. I can just see me falling into that loophole at that age, it would be cheaper than a month's worth of my prescriptions and nothing is more worthy than money(!)

Kim Leadbeater (the MP bringing the bill to parliament) was the guest on ‘Leading’ podcast yesterday. I found it really interesting and found her to be impressive:

Sadly an aged, dependent population are part of life and of course dementia sufferers are not included in this bill however your comments highlight how people understandably judge the quality of other people's lives.

We can't just euthanise those with dementia as care homes are expensive and their QOL is poor. What we can do is educate staff and family members not to advocate aggressive medical management of those with debilitating cognitive issues.

I wouldn't want a 90yr old loved one with dementia transferred to a hospital with an acute illness and resuscitated yet it happens all the time. That is what needs changing.

Is it also the case that’s it’s also irrational to NOT want to spare yourself and your family that?

Is it by implication unreasonable to NOT be thinking of the inheritance benefits of that cost?

If there is money involved and financial benefits and gains them there is risk of coercion.

What happens to the doctor who facilitated the lethal dose if they subsequently find out that there was coercion? Finding they were unwittingly party to murder, rather than a mercy killing, could take a hell of a toll on their mental health. Given the piss poor state of our mental health services, how many subsequent suicides are acceptable as collateral damage?

Veterinary medicine has a high suicide rate amongst vets, are we going to allow the same for the medical profession?

They probably won’t detect it every time but then again…How do they always detect murderers? How do they always detect coercion in power of attorney cases? How do they always detect human trafficking victims? How do they always detect housing benefit fraud? How do they always detect benefits fraud? How do they always detect whether someone is being coerced into having an abortion against their will? How do they always detect whether a child is being abused at home?

Yes many do get caught but some do slip through the net and it’s a sad reality of society today. Of course there will be those who try to abuse this system but in truth I’d like to hope there aren’t that many people out there wanting to murder a loved one for financial gain or because they’re a burden. It would be difficult to commit an anonymous crime and isn’t available to just any old, disabled or sick person.

We’re not giving enough credit to the staff who will be overseeing this incredibly sensitive and poignant area, much like the staff at Macmillan or hospice bereavement teams, there are people who dedicate their careers to making sure people are respected and treated with compassion and dignity. Anyone with such a significant responsibility is going to make sure they do their due diligence to the best of their ability and will need to be in agreement with more than just one staff member.

I doubt there’s many terminally ill patients with great mental health if they’re given less than 6 months to live. I only support this bill for those with 6 months or less left to live as a consequence of a progressive or terminal illness.

Who are these staff? Recruited from where? Or do you expect that Macmillan or hospice bereavement teams will be playing a part in this process?

The thing is that I myself would like to be euthanised if I get dementia. I wish there could be an advance directive.

@Gloriia

Sadly an aged, dependent population are part of life and of course dementia sufferers are not included in this bill however your comments highlight how people understandably judge the quality of other people's lives.

We can't just euthanise those with dementia as care homes are expensive and their QOL is poor. What we can do is educate staff and family members not to advocate aggressive medical management of those with debilitating cognitive issues.

I wouldn't want a 90yr old loved one with dementia transferred to a hospital with an acute illness and resuscitated yet it happens all the time. That is what needs changing.

THIS
A elderly lady I know suddenly took a turn for the worse 4 months before she died.
Respite and carers were implemented.
She not been very well previously but had managed
She had heart problems and lung/ breathing problems, kidney problems.
Anyone of which would fail at any time.
After 4 months they went to a hospice knowing it was time.
On day 5 of being there the doctors offered test for cancer.
Why ?
No doubt chemo would be next - the family said 'no'
A respect form had been signed by patient months earlier any way.
She died on day 10
Why put them through all that?
It would not have Helped.
She was 80 odd.
She'd suffered enough.

My friend in australia's parent was admitted to a hospice with advanced cancer. In there, he learnt from one of the other patients that euthanasia was now a legal option. He requested it immediately to end his suffering - he was wracked with a horrible cough and could barely eat or swallow anymore. There was a two weeks grace period where lots of paperwork needed to be signed. Two middle aged nurses arrived from Sydney with the lethal injections, asked him to confirm it was his wishes, he understood what was happening, etc. His family including my friend were all in the room. He said his goodbyes to everyone and then just peacefully passed away. The nurses were very kind and matter of fact, helped the family with the paperwork, and were back on a plane to Sydney later that day. My friend said it was such a peaceful end, and they were all so grateful.

They probably won’t detect it every time

@Onand And that is why it shouldn't be passed.