Assisted dying bill (TW assisted suicide discussion)

[Onand]

I appreciate this is a divisive subject and a sensitive topic for many. Please avoid this thread if you find any discussion of suicide, death, trauma, terminal illness, cancer and faith triggering.

I’m curious to know how others are feeling about this subject, from what I can see there isn’t a lot of discussion, is this a MNHQ decision or an indifference from posters?

My opinion and views on this potential landmark decision are based on my horrifying experience of watching and waiting for my mum to pass from end stage cancer several years ago.

For over four years she fought advanced cancer, she took every treatment and trial offered to her. She endured major abdominal surgery, many blood transfusions, multiple rounds of chemo, lost her hair several times, her bones started to crumble causing excruciating back pain, severe abdominal swelling, double nephrostomy as her kidneys failed, multiple lesions on her brain that caused debilitating headaches and personality changes, her teeth and bones were decaying due to a calcium disorder, various hospital stays for infections, the list goes on.

Truly the most hideous nightmare cancer ‘journey’ anyone could ever imagine, it always felt like one step forward and two backwards and yet she carried on without much fuss or sign of fear to protect the family and herself from the true horrors of suffering.

She never wanted to die and so she never gave up or gave in- that was until the last few weeks of her life when she had no choice. The immense damage and toll cancer had done to her physical body was too much to survive any longer so the last infection she had took her consciousness and so began the final horrifying curveball that cancer has up its evil sleeve, this one is for the loved ones though, because now you have to wait and watch for the end to come. Anyone who has endured this knows exactly what I am talking about, a horror that truly brings home the meaning of hell of earth.

If the assisted dying bill was around whilst my mum was alive I know she would have never entertained an early death whilst she was still in control and able to fight, but I do know that her love for the family would have also meant she would never have wanted us to endure that final two weeks of watching and waiting for her body to shut down if it could have been avoided and she was able to specify what was to happen at the end. There was no possibility of her ever getting better or a miraculous recovery, death was very inevitable and a certainty but we still had to sit and watch, doing oral care and leaving the room as they checked for bed sores and did secretion suction. The only thing I could do to protect and help her was the make sure she was undoubtedly unaware of what was happening as she feared death and leaving us behind- the thought of her being remotely aware meant we were constantly asking the nurses for more and more sedation.

If this bill gives patients the choice to avoid the hideously evil ending of a terminal illness and the following ptsd that impacts the loved ones left behind then it is an opportunity I strongly agree with. Watching a loved one die an agonising death is soul destroying and something I hope no one has to ever endure if said loved one could choose to avoid.

How do others feel?

MPs have voted in favour, it goes to the next step for scrutiny so it hasn't actually passed yet.

Yes but it’s the best outcome we could have today

Coercion can go both ways, though. People can be coerced by friends and relatives to stay alive because 'it's the will of God' or just because they can't bear the thought of losing them.

I once had a conversation with a friend who told me that, if I tried to kill myself or refused food and drink if my life became intolerable due to extreme pain (not always possible to palliate completely) or a condition like locked-in syndrome or MND, she would come along and physically prevent me from doing so. I shocked her by telling her that if she did, and I was still physically capable of killing, I would kill her in self-defence. Whereas if she ever tried to murder me, I would just call the police. I fear being forced to live under intolerable conditions more than I fear being murdered.

Ha - no! How on earth could you come to that conclusion?? You accused a poster who was in favour of the assisted dying bill of saying she is more important than little old ladies. I said she never said that. How on earth is that the same?!

I'm very upset and frightened too. I hear you, Hen.

'I once had a conversation with a friend who told me that, if I tried to kill myself or refused food and drink if my life became intolerable due to extreme pain (not always possible to palliate completely) or a condition like locked-in syndrome or MND, she would come along and physically prevent me from doing so. I shocked her by telling her that if she did, and I was still physically capable of killing, I would kill her in self-defence. Whereas if she ever tried to murder me, I would just call the police. I fear being forced to live under intolerable conditions more than I fear being murdered.'

Neither MND nor locked in syndrome would be illnesses eligible. You demonstrate exactly why people have reservations about this bill. Terminally ill and 6 months to live at the moment but people are already getting mixed up and including disabilities in their rationalising.

Proper investment in palliative care with relief of pain and unpleasant symptoms should be available to all

I imagine we could all agree on that as an ideal, @Lockupyourbiscuits, but in reality what are the chances when - as has happened elsewhere - suicide can be offered instead?

People are already getting mixed up and including disabilities in their rationalising

Edited to add yes, @Gloriia, and it's but a small step from thinking they're included to "Well, why shouldn't they be?"

YET

probably because people can't talk about assisted dying without looking for excuses to wipe disabled people out.

We're seen as less than human.

All i will say is i'm sick of Liz Carr thinking she speaks for all of us with disabilities and being trotted out by the media to parrot the dehumanisation of us as thinking its a slippery slope to murder us all.

Unfortunately I would still need to kill myself (or go to Dignitas) or refuse food and drink under those circumstances; and in the case of MND, it would probably mean dying sooner than necessary, as I would kill myself/ go to Dignitas while I still could.

I was giving it as an example of how people can try to coerce one into surviving, as well as in the other direction.Not because the bill deals with all such eventualities.

But at least this bill means that I could choose assisted dying under SOME intolerable circumstances. And resist SOME forms of coercion.

And if palliative care is inadequate, or governments take a 'let the bodies pile high' attitude to vulnerable people, it will not be because some people choose assisted dying for themselves. It will be because not enough people are prepared to pay the taxes, (or do without other services) to enable adequate funding for people most in need of healthcare and social care. The increasingly common division of people into 'net contributors' and the rest has a lot more baleful influence in these matters than the possibility of assisted dying.

For those disabled people who are frightened of this.Why? No one under this legislation is going to kill you, or suggest you kill yourselves.

The proposed scheme is the most heavily safeguarded anywhere.

The fact that I absolutely do not want to live my last six months in torture and agony, nor have my friends and family witness this is my own and my family's concern. Not yours.

I am hugely grateful the bill has passed this first stage.

Very good points @ToWhitToWhoo

In fact coercion, where it exists lies entirely on the opposite side of the fence.

My aged, demented mother was repeatedly admitted to hospital for antibiotics and whatnot.

She wanted to die. She told me she did. There was a DNR in place but still the treatment persisted to and fro from the hospital, bangs to the head, chest infections- all resulting in lengthy (48 hrs want time ) delayed admission to hospital resulting in more trauma and confusion.

I spoke at length to her GP but they prevaricated.

Eventually she suffered such severe head trauma ( she looked like she had suffered a severe domestic assault beating) from an unwitnessed fall ( I suspect she was assaulted actually), that the consultant at last agreed to withdraw antibiotics and she died of pneumonia .

What a way to end.

This bill does not go far enough.

Is there a reason you believe everyone who opposes the bill hasn't experienced that?

@Errors You are telling me a poster's intentions and implications. Why are you allowed to but I'm not? Toxic positivity.

What does assisted dying have to do with ‘wiping disabled people out’

I want to make an informed, educated decision that if I wanted to end my life because of a painful progressive illness, then I can.

this isn’t about you at all.

if you want to end your life in the same way, then that’s up to you.

I'm not worried for myself. I'm worried for others.

Because I don’t believe that anyone could sit and watch someone else hanging on in unimaginable fear and pain and think ‘yeah that’s fine’ when there is another way.

would you leave your pets to suffer? Or have you taken them to the vet because it’s ’the kindest thing to do’

@WinterBones No, I don't think you are less than human. What a completely ridiculous, utterly offensive and abusive comment.

I will say one thing though.Your rights, happily do not trump everyone else's.

I absolutely agree that those with severe cognitive problems like dementia should be kept comfortable but not treated aggressively, if she had a dnr what on earth were they doing? Of course treating isn't resuscitatng but it is still prolonging suffering.

You point though that 'this bill does not go far enough' is exactly what concerns those who oppose it.

GPs need educating in how to manage those with chronic illnesses who have a very poor quality of life. Antibiotics with repeat hospital admissions are not it.

Well, sorry to disabuse you of your prejudice but I have watched a loved one die that death. And it's not lack of compassion the guides my opinion but the road map left by the other countries who have opened this can of worms and the horrors that followed.

People aren't pets, it is a false equivalence. We wouldn't shoot someone with a broken leg either but I believe that is what happens to horses.

Because I don’t believe that anyone could sit and watch someone else hanging on in unimaginable fear and pain and think ‘yeah that’s fine’ when there is another way.

Sure but what does that have to do with disagreeing with the bill?

would you leave your pets to suffer? Or have you taken them to the vet because it’s ’the kindest thing to do’

No because we control pets and they aren't able to sign up for assisted dying.

Well, whatever you think, I am willing and able to decide my own fate should it come to it, and it’s been a glorious day.

wish you all the best for your lives in the future.

Great.

And everyomd else who can't?