To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

Well done, you and your dc are winning in life.

While I agree that problems caused by parenting style/lack of support are a serious issue, just as bad is the lack of support from SLT.

During my long career in teaching I saw this change from the headteacher always defending teachers (sometimes when they were in the wrong) to the sort of undermining illustrated by Jifmicroliquid.

Defending the indefensible needed to change, but it has swung far too far the other way. Quite honestly the type of people promoted to these posts nowadays are a big part of the problem. And the few SLT members who never give up tend to end up completely burned out.

Independent schools don’t tend to have children with behavioural problems because that behaviour isn’t tolerated and the parents are highly (financially) invested in their child’s education. Children are sanctioned and then the parents are asked to remove their child from the school.

That doesn’t mean that private schools are good at managing disruptive behaviour. In fact it’s quite the opposite - private schools don’t have to manage disruptive behaviour because they just ask the children to leave. State schools don’t have the luxury of refusing service to difficult customers. They’re not businesses that can cherry pick the easiest kids to teach. They have a duty to educate children. They have to find a way to work with difficult, unsupportive parents and children that can’t or won’t engage with learning.

I did see the comments from Labour about cutting down on sanctions and exclusions and I pity the teaching staff that will have to deal with the consequences of that. You just know it won’t come with any funding for additional support.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/jul/20/english-schools-to-phase-out-cruel-behaviour-rules-as-labour-plans-major-education-changes

You are absolutely correct but whatever the reasons for behaviour being better at Private schools the fact is that it IS the case at most Private schools, which is a major reason why parents choose them.
No child who wants to learn should be prevented from doing so by the bad behaviour of others but all too often its how it is

From experience of working in a school that has had to accept an ex private school pupils.
Schools will often syphon them off into the bottom buckets of progress 8 and leave the teachers to try and teach these pupils. Who can often destroy entire classes whilst the SLT stand there and watch. Often setting teachers (and whole classes) up for failure.

Again , though, I think parents don't actually know what goes on.

DH works in a private school. He deals with different issues form me but still complains of poor behaviour often at the arrogant end of the spectrum-and knows kids run rings around some staff.

I do think we have to bear in mind, though, that there are some schools with very vicious management of behaviour - often in MATs. Teachers have been speaking out themselves about Mossbourne and about the Astrea Trust in Cambs which has leaked staff left , right and centre and where staff themselves took strike action.

@Birdscratch I don’t doubt that there is some comparison between apples and pears between independent and state schools.

What can a teacher or state school do now to give a good experience to a child who is having a bad experience because of bad behaviour and disruption? I’m sure it’s a horrible environment to teach in but it’s worse to have to learn through this. Most of the suggestions to fix this are structural or adopting rigid behaviour controls but that doesn’t help a child in the system now.

I’m asking as a reluctant private school parent as I no longer have confidence in the state offer and want to know if anything can change quickly to help my children.

pssssst 🙃you must not say that there is bad behaviour in fee paying schools. There can't be, right? Fee paying families are all about music, art, culture, sport, a sophisticated life, they have no time to be horrible. If there is any bad behaviour at all it's kitten like bad behaviour. All private school parents are super involved and invested and therefore super nice and anyone who calls out in class gets sent to coventry. According to some on this thread.

I help 2 schools with Y11 Mock interviews and the school with the tighter discipline certainly better prepares the DC for the world of work based on what I see.

I recall one girl coming to school on the morning she would be going to her mock interview wearing a very short skirt, what we called a pubic pelmet back in my day, and a very tight cropped top, displaying her belly piercings. I quietly asked her, in private, if she though that the outfit, lovely as it was (I can lie with the best of them), was suitable for going to meet a stranger in a formal setting. The next day her mother was yelling on the phone to the Deputy Head that I had humiliated her daughter, it was none of my blankety-blank business what her daughter wanted to wear.

Wow. Are we back to shaming girls for what they wear? It really wasn't your business I'm afraid. Of course she thought it was suitable otherwise she wouldn't have worn it. You did shame her, at least own it. As well meaning as you presumably were, you embarrassed her. There is always a way of getting these things across. Asking the girl if she thought it was appropriate for meeting a stranger in a formal setting was a bit dishonest. Were you her teacher? Part of the mock interviews? If you were directly involved, you could have said that interviews require formal attire, such as suits or similar and dressing for the job you're applying for. If the girl was applying for a job in a tattoo place or other alternative places, her outfit may have been ok.

pubic pelmet

When women speak about pother women this way, what hope is there for feminism

@FrodosTemper it's not 'shaming' to tell someone that their outfit is inappropriate for the world of work, and that accusation is a good example of why things are the way they are.
Would you be happy if you went into a medical consultation and the doctor had on hot pants and a sports bra just? Or in for parents night and the teacher wore that?

And this girl won’t learn an important lesson and won’t get offered jobs she otherwise would. The feedback given is precisely the message the girl needs to hear. So incredibly valuable.

And all State schools are full of feral children with parents who don't give a shit if we are going to generalise?
Can't be, right?

I interviewed a young lady at a mock interview and I can honestly say she was one of the smartest most switched on savvy young women I had ever met.
She looked like she was about to go clubbing, would I have given her a job? Maybe but it was 50/50. IF she had been dressed more appropriately it would have been 100% so these kids need to learn that what you wear CAN affect your prospects and it starts at school

Gentle parenting is a crock of shit, and is creating a generation of feeble, hostile, and entitled adults. Children need direction, support, effort, love, discipline (now a dirty word), reward, praise, and consequences.

If you can see up it, down it or through it, don't wear it to work/school. If the staff dressed as some of our year 11 girls do on interview day, the parents would lodge formal complaints to the Head (and rightly so).

Mostly down to parents wanting to be best friends with their kids.

If your kids don't learn respect at home, they won't respect anyone else.

Have said this to friends who are afraid of upsetting their kids as they answer back passive aggressively.

All this soft parenting leads to kods who don't respect you.

LOL. How did you know?

Yes yes yes ( in spades)
My reasonably bright 16yo DS says the curriculum is boring with too much content and not enough choice at GCSE. School is putting him off going to Uni.
Micheal Gove has a lot to answer for. I feel sorry for those non academic kids who years ago would have thrived on a more creative and practical curriculum that isn’t designed to fail them.

Ex teacher.

The offended generation is exhausting

I totally agree with @DrRuthGalloway above, been saying it for years! In my subject, you have to get 2/3rds of the paper to get a 5. A 5!!

Primary teacher here, but my feelings may still resonate with high school.

There are two huge problems with the pupils in my school and their behaviour.

1- Parents who believe their ch are little angels and can do no wrong. I could write a book on all the times I’ve informed parents of bad behaviour and their parents make/look for excuses, Blame me somehow, or flat out refuse to believe it. A few months back I had an incredibly disruptive incident with a pupil where she swore and screamed and was violent to another child, causing injury. I called her mum, and to be fair mum was understanding, but didn’t seem that bothered, and when she picked her up that night she met her on the playground with a huge toffee apple. And I just thought… no!

2- Our SLT are a huge problem when it comes to dealing with behaviour. We as teachers tackle as much as we possibly can, but when things are bigger than the classroom and need further backup from SLT, they give children a soft talking too and they usually end up coming out of the office with a sticker. But the biggest problem is, really, really bad behaviour (I’m talking swearing at staff, hitting other kids, throwing things, acting dangerously, fighting) doesn’t get properly addressed. It’s just a lunch time detention and then move on. But the children see this as “getting away” with bad behaviour and then they know they can just do it again, knowing there’s no proper sanction. My partner teacher has a child in her class who was a bit cheeky at the start of the year but nothing major, but in a fit of rage a few weeks ago told the class TA to “just piss off” and nothing was done about it, and since then the girl has been so much worse, and my partner teacher fully believes it’s because she tested the waters with that sort of behaviour and got away with it, so now feels untouchable.

It really is boring! It’s a competition - who can remember the most pointless facts. Completely overwhelming for the vast majority of student and not promoting a love of learning. The whole curriculum and system needs an overhaul. I teach secondary.