To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

I miss Covid. They all had pens then, so it can be done.

Can I just say that if every parent had to spend a week, even a day, in a secondary school, seeing how hard the staff work and what they have to face every single day, I'm pretty damn sure you wouldn't get 99% of the comments above.

Do they actually wear Nike shorts at school instead of the usual school uniform? Is this real? That sounds crazy.

At my dc's school girls wear Nike Pros under their school skirt for modesty and comfort.

They wear crocs to school? What kind of school is this? It's unimaginable.

Assume you don't work in a school?

I agree. Follow the little rules then the big ones aren't such a shock.

Yes, it’s true. They are supposedly allowed to wear only tailored shorts-but a lot of girls wear the Nike pros. To be fair, they are actually less revealing that an extremely short skirt with a thong underneath.

Usually white crocs with knee high black socks. I know it’s unbelievable, but it’s true. SLT won’t stand up to it so they push and push.

100%
There was a mum on our local social media moaning about how strict the local 'outstanding' secondary is. Her poor darling was given a detention for constantly being late for lessons, shock horror! Every other kid makes it to lessons on time. She also moaned about them being sanctioned for wearing leggings, I think a lot of the parents need to grow the fuck up.

@FrodosTemper

They wear crocs to school? What kind of school is this? It's unimaginable.

We sometimes have students wearing black crocs to school - I suppose at least they're black 🤷🏻‍♀️

We used to have a really strict uniform & behaviour was definitely better when the uniform was stricter.

Luckily we don't have the tight Nike shorts but some are also wearing leggings. The trend seems to be white sports socks over black tights. I think SLT have given up on this & loads are wearing them because apparently their feet are cold? I suggested wearing black or navy to blend in but they didn't want to do that!

Omg we have the white socks over black tights thing too. Where has that come from?

I take their tie. Have recently started doing it again as I am running seriously low on pens again. Had a tie on my desk for a week after the first pen I lent🤦🏼‍♀️

It's been banned at my school!

Behaviour is by no means excellent at my school, but this thread has confirmed it's so much worse elsewhere. I think the difference is a head teacher who does daily staff briefings and is not afraid to permanently exclude children if necessary. Staff are supported although SLT could be more visible. We're backed up if we discipline pupils. FWIW, shouting at someone to fuck off is a criminal offence in public. Don't accept it in the workplace!

So I have to ask, did she stay on after that? Because if she did I have to say I’m impressed.

I have done for twenty one years now.

I don’t disagree with a lot that’s written here but I think that just dismissing it as ‘parenting’ is a lazy way out. It’s often borne from frustration but the problem is it leads to an ‘is vs them’ approach which never gets us anywhere.

I started my teaching career in a small secondary school in a deprived area - not the bronx sort of equivalent, just a shabby secondary school on a bit of a bleak housing estate. It was also poorly managed. A lot of the problems we had then aren’t ones I’m seeing so now so much - pregnancy in girls (obviously I suppose) smoking, violence against teachers (I know others have but I personally haven’t) probably a few more. Behaviour was really awful there and that was more than twenty years ago. I haven’t worked in a school like that since so I can’t say I find behaviour notably worse than when I started. And the low level stuff that’s actually not low level hasn’t changed. Every week I have to buy pens, that isn’t any different to how it’s always been, same with calling out, interrupting, arguing, stupid behaviour on the corridors and staircases.

@Piggywaspushed mentioned fiddly systems and ours absolutely are. For my lessons I am supposed to be out on the corridor, it is apparently a non negotiable, while there is a task up for students to get on with. (How I’m supposed to put this up and get the books out while also being on the corridor is a bit of an ongoing challenge.) Then a bell goes to signify that anyone arriving past this point will be marked as late; about a third of my class pile in just as it’s gone and I’ve no idea which ones they were. I think there a a significant minority who think they must not be in the classroom before that bell It is particularly bad after lunch because they always blow the whistle ridiculously early so I can have some kids in my class ten to fifteen minutes before others.

Then I do the register. Two kids aren’t here but have been marked present in their previous lessons so I have to send a safeguarding alert, this isn’t just pressing a button, I have to explain why. Of course, the second I do that, they arrive. So I have to recall that and mark them late and give a detention. I’m finally ready to start teaching And I haven’t even got to calling out, no pen etc.

But I do have compassion for a lot of parents because I can see they are dealing with a lot themselves. None of us are perfect and I’m not trying to demonise anyone. I think some parents get fed up of schools constantly contacting them to (as they perceive it) complain about their child and become hostile and defensive.

I wish I had easy answers here but it’s the same old stories. Ideally education would be a social leveller but it’s not.

Scrap progress 8 for a start.

We expect all children to take 8-10 GCSEs and the way progress 8 works the subjects are mostly picked for them with only a couple of choices.

So you have 30 kids in a class. Depending on the subject and whether the subject has put students in sets you might have a bunch of able kids (in that subject) but some of them might not be interested.

In another class you might have 30 children who are never going to get a GCSE at a decent grade and they know it.

You might have a child who is gifted at music and art but they have to sit GCSEs in science and may have a choice of one art subject.

Add in SEND students. Some SEND is fairly easy to accommodate (my default PowerPoints are on a blue background with a dyslexia friendly font) and I can email notes / handouts to them ahead of time, some isn't so easy.

Deaf students need time if they are using an interpreter for the interpreter to do their job. Some things they need to 'feel' eg putting some equipment together that makes a 'click' a Deaf student has to actual feel the 'click'.

If anyone fails then it is my fault not the child who has spent 2 years disrupting the class.

@Pomegranatecarnage

Usually white crocs with knee high black socks. I know it’s unbelievable, but it’s true. SLT won’t stand up to it so they push and push.
Yes, it’s true. They are supposedly allowed to wear only tailored shorts-but a lot of girls wear the Nike pros.

This is grotesque. I'm surprised the school allow it. And, what's going on with the parents of these girls, why are they not parenting? If the school is this lax, it would be better to ditch any uniform requirement so that pupils can come to school in jeans, trainers and hoodies like in most of Europe and America.

They wouldn’t need them for ‘modesty’ if they didn’t roll up their skirts to an immodest level…

Is there any chance we could stop talking about teenage girls like this? I’ve ignored it for the past few pages but seriously

It isn’t the girls clothes that’s ‘gross’.

I’d say at least 95% of the behavioural issues in our school come from the fact that the ‘staff on the ground’ are expected to be consistent with behaviour management across the board - there is a clear policy in place for dealing with poor behaviour,

BUT our SLT and middle leaders end up backing down A LOT with certain students (ie) the ones whose parents they are afraid of upsetting) and treating too many students as ‘special cases’ who can’t be subject to the same consequences as everyone else. Other students see this and copy said behaviour, believing they won’t face consequences because x,y and z didn’t. And the whole thing falls apart. And SLT sit in their ivory towers, wringing their hands and wondering what’s going wrong (and blaming those at the chalkface).

Often, I could just weep when I see what the ‘good’ students who just want to learn have to put up with daily. You can literally see their souls slowly sliding away as the realisation hits that this is their life for the next x amount of years.

The irony is, the students who get treated as ‘special cases’ are usually the ones that need the boundaries more than anyone, as they aren’t getting boundaries at home. A firm hand would be really good for them in teaching them about societal expectations before they go out into the big world, so in a way, they are being failed too.

That's simply not true. My dd has worn some type of PE or Nike pro shorts under her knee length skirt since year 3. All the girls did at her primary school. It helps when you do handstands and is more comfortable. Also easier to get changed for PE. There is nothing wrong with Nike pros under skirts. I detest it when middle aged women moan about the length of girls skirts, it's just conveys their internalised misogyny, it sounds really sneery and nasty.

@whereilived I know exactly how you feel and agree with you that there is a sexist and degrading tone in some of these comments 💯. However wearing white crocs and nike pros as the only uniform with a shirt tied around is grotesque. It's not so much the shortness or tightness of clothing but that it's inappropriate attire for being in an official setting. I'd prefer jeans and hoodies any day.

Parents need to realise that most kids actually do behave well, are polite and respectful. Your DC coming to lessons late with no equipment or hwk is not them just being a regular teen. Stop minimising how disruptive it is to a lesson if a pupil calls out, chatters, is late etc. if your child gets a detention don’t challenge it. Work with the school.

I’d say exactly the same if boys were wearing uniform that revealed their underwear and buttocks. However, boys never do. It’s also a hygiene issue. Girls who are wearing skirts so short that they are sitting on chairs in their underwear is a bit grim.

Girls who are wearing skirts so short that they are sitting on chairs in their underwear is a bit grim.

That's quite enough @Pomegranatecarnage. Your focus is quite odd.

Sorry, haven't rtft but was struck by an earlier comment that the person hadn't come across much actual 'gentle parenting' just people basically constantly explaining and negotiating with their children. This is a big thing for me - I've got thirty 15 year olds who need to come in, sit down and get cracking. I don't have the time to spend 15 minutes negotiating with your darling child about why they are late and whether I am monstrously unfair for telling them off for being late. The conversation should be me observing child is late, child apologising and sitting down/getting equipment out. Many interactions should simply involve me giving an instruction and the child just bloody doing it, but instead they think it's some sort of opening to a major analysis or debate. I need more 'Yes miss, right away'. And that comes from how children are raised at home.