To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

I think kids need FIRM boundaries and lots of love right from a young age. I agree that permissive/gentle parenting has a lot to answer for here. Kids grow up feeling like nobody is in charge and everything is a democracy so they put themselves in charge. That is not going to magically change once they become teenagers.

The interesting thing here though is that largely, people agree with the above point on this thread. But if someone posted something about a five year old badly misbehaving, any attempt to suggest that they need some discipline would be shot down by other posters.

We chose indy secondary for this exact reason ie positive relationships between pupils + teachers. Smaller classes = teachers really get to know kids and can spend more time building lessons to meet the needs of all the pupils. Staff and pupils smile and greet each other as they walk around the school and there is no "us V them". Minor disruptions are dealt with quickly and swiftly and not tolerated. Teachers don't have to spend time dealing with disruptions in lessons and all the kids are scared of the Deputy Head who is in charge of behaviour (6ft+ rugby ex military bloke, actually really nice but physically formidable and rarely smiles). All the kids live in fear of being sent to him.
Finally, SEN support is 1-2-1 for each child who needs it so those kids are accommodated in each lesson as they have their personal SEN tutor in each lesson with them. If they can't cope with the class lessons then they can have 1-2-1 or small group teaching in dedicated classrooms.

No, those are not petty rules. They are basic rules with a self-evident purpose, common to not only every school but public places in general, and often concerned with safety. That is why I did not list any of them among the unreasonable rules that some of the self-proclaimed "strict schools" are known to punish students for.

I don't enjoy it when students argue about those basic rules any more than you do, particularly when they lie to my face about something I saw them do five seconds earlier. But that's teenagers for you. However, I don't hold with the idea some espouse that giving kids petty rules to push back on will prevent them from rebelling against the important ones. I think it's more likely to confuse students about which rules are important, and to make them resent all authority figures as petty tyrants. Especially when the same punishment (eg detention) applies to nearly everything.

Oh, yes, I do agree about the petty rules and push back line. Who is it that started that crap?

My view on parenting has always been that if you are quite strict you can create a good base for behaviour and then choose to let some things go occasionally and schools should be the same SO as an example not bringing stationary should be sanctioned but then if it seems the circumstances warrant it let it go. Conversely if not bringing stationary is never sanctioned then if a child is doing it on purpose or its part of a pattern then its harder to then give a punishment for it.

I agree. There have to be gradations between the way we would treat, for example a year 7 forgetting stationary on the first day of school and a student who, six months into school, still can't be bothered to come equipped to work.

I teach in a grammar - you would think I have it cushy (and in comparison to my decades in comps and having physical abuse I do). However, the lack of respect and entitlement is prevalent. What is shocking for me - especially as I teach all girls - is the lack of respect for the toilets. Sanitary bins are stuffed with food and tampons and towels are left on the floor. When I was pushed down the stairs when pregnant (in a comp) at least I could understand the kid hated me, I can’t get my mind round the reasoning for leaving a tampon on the floor.

I agree with the basic lack of respect - it grinds you down. We have to do a morning duty once a week and we actively greet students with a “good morning”. It’s rare to receive eye contact, let alone a response.

I have an autistic child and we work so hard on his interpersonal skills. I used to worry about his future - funny how he may have brilliant communication skills compared to his peers who spend their whole life looking at a screen.

I'm not sure. It seems like weird, bastardized relative of the broken windows theory of policing.

DS got several warnings in his first few weeks in Y7 for forgetting things, a teacher phoned me to suggest I help him. I said that I always asked him to pack his bag the night before and asked if he was sure he had everything and I wasn't going to do any more than that. I said that if he continued to do it then they should feel free to sanction him, they did and he soon stopped forgetting things.
He is in Y11 now and still packs his bag the night before and doesn't forget things (mostly)

Many of the low-level behaviours don't get a detention - the student will get a verbal warning. Some academies are running having your card marked - you have to fill a complete card (i.e. do the thing 15 times before you get an after-school detention). 3 strikes and you're out tends to be for repeated warnings for messing about/dangerous behaviour and when the student has refused to stop digging the hole they're in by being insolent and backchatting.

FWIW as a teacher and a parent, uniform/attendance/homework are not the biggest issues for me as they are for others. The "broken windows" theory is a fallacy - Sorry, Malcolm Gladwell: NYC’s Drop in Crime Not Due to Broken Window Theory | Smithsonian and schools in Europe manage fine without uniform. Uniform often undermines levelling up and is a minefield for those with sensory issues. Attendance rules - you can keep waving the stats at me - need to be more tailored to the student/family you're dealing with but they're not as the government have tied the hands of attendance officers. Homework - I'd be happy to have a rewards-based system for students who develop their own passions/conduct their own research/do their own projects/present their own findings = cultivating a passion and learning how to learn. Much homework is a hoop for students to jump through and doesn't embed or inspire a love of learning or give any choice. Like the curriculum it's one size fits all.

Trauma-informed practice/restorative justice/mediation have a place but invariably, staff are caught between a rock and hard place. There is nowhere for these students to go - PRUs are full and they learn little being turfed into isolation repeatedly (one student I know seems to prefer it to the classroom so it's having the opposite effect it's meant to and is not working as a deterrent).
But staff are expected to keep dysregulated/disruptive and volatile students while protecting learning at the same time. The needs of the few should not take over the needs of the majority. I wish I had a solution. Treating those likely to be exited/likely to disrupt learning with kid gloves doesn't solve it; others look at them thinking what's the point of me then/am I invisible?/are their needs always going to outweigh mine/no point being "good"/they're being treated differently to me. You can talk to the majority about equity rather than equality but that won't help the sense of injustice if they see certain students regularly get away with what they'd be pulled up on first time or being treated differently because "inclusion."

Why should your child get to disrupt the class? The teacher having to spend time managing your child’s behaviour takes away from the other 29. They have a behaviour management process, and it’s going to the hub/detention.

It often bloody well is!!

I left teaching after almost 20 years and it was mostly due to the behaviour. A typical day in the last school I worked at would include 5 lessons of at least 4 kids refusing to sit in their seating plan, me being insulted, verbally abused, ridiculed due to a disability and at least half of each class refusing to do any work at all. I attempted to teach from the front of the room and no class was capable of listening for more than a minute so this became impossible due to the constant distractions. If I left my room at break or lunch, I would be barged or sworn at, called a ‘fat fucking cunt’ Not that it matters but I’m a size 12, I need to lose a few pounds but I’m not exactly obese. After a few weeks of this not improving I spoke to my line manager and was made to feel that it was due to my teaching because ‘Miss X has them and they don’t have any issues’ I observed Miss X and the reason she didn’t have any issues is because she let them sit where they wanted (4-5 teenagers to a two person desk in some cases) She didn’t challenge this or the fact that they did no work and were sat playing on phones, card games or putting make up on! The head of year came in and actually praised the class for how hard they were working. I was speechless! No wonder I was hated for expecting them to actually do some work! On top of this was the complete lack of support from SMT ‘Are you sure she attacked you? She’s saying she didn’t’ and ‘She’s only 14’ He must have asked you if he could go to the toilet because his mum wouldn’t have called otherwise!’ Similar happened in front of students.
Unfortunately my experience is far from unique and many others are leaving teaching as a result. It affected me so badly that I will never set foot in another classroom again.
For those saying forgetting a pen is minor, on an average day I would hand out around 50 pens, I’d be lucky to get 30 back that hadn’t been destroyed. It doesn’t take a genius to work out the cost of this over a year for the average school! Schools have no money as it is, who is supposed to be funding the equipment?

I was at a country girls grammar 73-80. I recall an assembly with a desk set upon the stage. It was one of a whole batch of new, wooden double-desks. Someone had graffitied a small thing on the inside of the lid. We were all torn a second one as to who would dare deface such an important piece of kit as a desk!

Can you imagine that today?

They are shorts. Are students in your school wearing with no skirts? Or at PE? Or are you referring to girls wearing them in summer to the park? I'm a bit confused

When you send your child to a school, you are agreeing to abide by their uniform policy and rules. Don’t like it? Don’t send your child there.

Following uniform rules is easy. Just wear what you are supposed to wear and don’t wear what you shouldn’t. If your tie is supposed to be done up high, then do it high. It’s not hard is it?
You/your child might not like the rules, but if that’s the case, go to a school with a more relaxed uniform. Don’t kick off when your child chooses to break the uniform rules and gets a detention for it.

A lot of people don’t realise, but it’s following little rules that lead to better behaviour.
When I was a teacher, if I lined my kids up outside the room and made sure they were quiet and listening and ready to learn before they went into the room, you’d be amazed at how much better the atmosphere and learning was than if i just allowed them to wander into the room when they arrived, chatting with their mates.
You set the tone that you want with the small things (the tie/the socks/the shoes/having a pen and equipment) and then the students begin to respect the bigger things. And this all goes towards improving their learning, which in turn helps them to achieve their qualifications. The ultimate aim is for each student to leave school with the qualifications they need to go on to what they want to do in life. The uniform rules and the other ‘pointless’ things people complain about is actually part of this process.

This is exactly why me and so many other parents of SEN kids turn to private. After 6 months of sinking into self harm and school refusal at a state school (my autistic son simply needed a calm environment) we turned to private which was a life saver. It costs a ton, we can barely afford it but what option are we left with? And now we have to pay vat for our ‘luxury’.

Behaviour is intrinsically awful. About 50% of parents actively oppose any form of discipline.

However this can be mitigated by an effective SLT upholding an effective discipline policy coupled with amazing teachers who have unsustainable amounts of energy. Sadly the relatively poor pay does not encourage this.

i teach in an inner-city comp with a heavy bias towards ALN students. Almost all my classes are over 30, with some ALN classes being 27 students ( no support staff). I am privileged to teach with some outstanding colleagues which means that although we teach a difficult and potentially unpopular subject poor behaviour is rarely an issue. We have spent hours and hours and hours designing a bespoke curriculum that is suitable for all which means that all students can successfully engage with tasks. We are relentless with our routines and consequences for poor behaviour are strictly adhered to, However, we are also kind, cheerful, positive and funny with the kids all day every day. IT IS FUCKING EXHAUSTING!!!!!!!!.

As a private school parent with experience of state too, the absolute core of this is that private schools can kick disobedient pupils out and state schools can’t . Reopen PRUs and schools to help pupils with SEN and remove pupils from mainstream schools. This is at the core of the problems.

I just asked DS, year ten at a leafy boys comp, mainly middle class catchment. They are quite hot on discipline and he said kids aren't disruptive in class. I do appreciate this is the view of a fourteen year old, but just wanted to reassure people it's not necessarily all doom and gloom.

Like these. No skirt. All day-not for PE. With a shirt tied at the waist to fashion a crop top and a school tie. Often with knee high socks and crocs.

Do you teach MFL by any chance?

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

Quite the opposite. Teachers love to moan about how terrible the profession is on Mumsnet! (I am a teacher).

When I did teacher training, there was a teacher at the school who would only lend out a pen in exchange for the pupil’s shoe. It reminded them to give the pen back at the end of the lesson because they needed their shoe back. Of course the classroom stank.

We had an NQT who tried this with a class who then all claimed not to have pens and pelted her with shoes.