To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

I don’t think some posters realise how some students dress. We’re not talking about rolling up school skirts - I have seen shapes of sanitary towels through knickers flowing students up stairs or on a chair if they don’t sit with legs closed. It’s just not appropriate but we don’t say anything for fear of body shaming. I just advise my own DD about what is practical and appropriate for a formal setting.

Absolutely @MrsMurphyIWish had to take primary aged dc to a sports thing at a local secondary school, what some of the girls from that school had on as 'pe' wear I would class as control under wear!

I didn’t know that about the grade marks. I’d have assumed that the highest grades would be around 90% correct, mid range grades being about 60% correct.

When did that change?

There are some consistent and very clear messages on this thread about what is going wrong in schools and how it is largely caused by poor parenting and weak leadership.

What I find difficult to understand is why there is such demonisation, by politicians and in the media, of parents who do everything in their power to take their children out of these awful environments so that they can actually learn, whether that is by scrimping together for private school fees, moving house to a better catchment or extreme tutoring for grammar or partially selective schools. These parents are slapped with VAT and sneered at as sharp elbowed; oversubscription criteria are engineered so that merely living in the right place isn’t enough - you need to have been there for three years, you can’t be in a rented flat, there is a lottery and so on. All the parents are doing is trying to ensure their child is not at school with the types of kid described on this thread - the four children in the class who take up all the teacher’s time and prevent anyone else from learning, then get offered hot chocolate with the head, while those who do the right thing are given detention for forgetting a pen or not lining up properly. Is it any wonder that the majority of “good” kids are becoming disengaged with school?

For example, AQA biology in 2023 to get a grade 9 - a score attained by just the top few percent - you had to get 63 percent or thereabouts.

I'm confused, to get the top mark of 9 students merely need to score 69%? At uni, we had to get >70 for a first. How can a 69% score represent the very top grade?

Because that represents the top 2%-ish of kids in the cohort. That's how the grades are decided.

There just aren’t any meaningful sanctions for poor behaviour anymore, so students don’t face any consequences.

Parents don’t support the school, becoming defensive if called in to discuss their child.

permissive/gentle parenting leaving children thinking they can do whatever they like.

A lack of funding, so difficult behaviour isn’t addressed properly.

In 2017 when the 9-1 grades came in.

Thanks @noblegiraffe , what's the point of scoring 70-100 then? What are the differentiators in the upper bracket? or is it not possible to get, say, 89% and above in science GCSEs? This must sound very ignorant but I am still unsure.

I’m sure you’re right, @noblegiraffe, as you see it every day, but I am wondering when this changed. When I was at secondary school (90s/00s) our lunch break was an hour and 20 minutes long, and loads of clubs / music ensembles / sports practices ran during that time. It meant those who were unable to hang around at the end of the school day could still participate in extra curricular opportunities as well as having plenty of time to eat. Surely it would do the children good to get outside, get some fresh air and kick a ball around / chat to their mates before having to sit and concentrate all afternoon. That is generally the case at primary and doesn’t suddenly change when they hit 11?

@metellaestinatrio completely agree. DS is at a private primary school, and we have entitled parents and there are some kids who get far more leniency than others but the head kicked one family out because the parents violated the code of conduct repeatedly by threatening the teachers. Funnily enough no one else threatens the teachers now because they know there’ll be consequences.

I’m a governor at a local primary school that is used as a dumping ground by the council for whoever they can’t place elsewhere so we have everything to lovely kids who don’t speak a word of English to children with severe SEN whose parents are in denial. We have a fantastic new head teacher who doesn’t hide in her office but is out doing ‘good morning’ duty and is firm with parents. We’ve had the police in for trying to attack the HT because she brought up their DCs frequent lateness.

We are more lax about uniform because we know a lot of our kids only have one pair of shoes (generally trainers) and we would rather they had a coat than no coat but manners cost nothing.

Seems crazy that even the top 2% of kids only get about 63%. That does seem too hard. Surely the curriculum could be hard enough to differentiate the top students but not be quite so hard.

I don't know if you can read this but these are June 2024 grade boundaries. It is a real and significant issue. Why set exams this hard?

Biology higher paper grade 9. 141/200 (70%)
Grade 4 - 48/200 - so less than 25 percent and that is a pass grade. So not someone really poor at biology.

Chemistry grade 9 149/200
Grade 4 46/200

There is no need at all to set the exams skewed so high.

Of course it's possible to get 90 percent or above. The point is, the exams are set so hard that even the most able few percent are only scoring 60-70 percent. I am sure there are one or two kids every year who get 95 percent. But we shouldn't be setting exams that the vast majority of kids can't access well over half of, in order to demonstrate that amazing wunderkind Marjorie Philips from Little Tweeting got 98 percent.

That’s wild. I had no idea. Thanks @DrRuthGalloway

Next question, @DrRuthGalloway if you don’t mind. Is this likely to change with the change of govt? I doubt teachers want curriculum to be change again but what are the plans regarding this?

Agreed, that's nuts.

A bit off topic to the discussion about behaviour but I am also concerned about the damage caused by making the GCSE exams so inaccessible to middle and low ability children.

My DS is currently in year 11 at a local comprehensive. He’s a lovely boy - hardworking, polite, never any trouble at school - and he is currently revising for around 2 hours most nights and attending all the revision sessions the school offers. However, he is middle ability and currently on track for a load of 5s (maybe a couple of 6s at a push). This is consistent with his CAT scores and given his ability, we would be delighted with a load of 5s.

He’s in the group of kids who are a bit borderline for sitting the higher versus foundation paper in maths/science but at the moment the plan is for him to sit the higher paper (definitely in maths as there is a possibility of a 6). However the fact is that much of the higher papers are beyond him and this is understandably demoralising and stressful. My son is a fairly laid back kid with no SEN but I can’t begin to imagine how this must affect more sensitive kids. I am actually hoping that the school choose to put him in for the foundation paper in science. He only needs 4s to do his level 3 BTEC next year so I think we would all be happier without the stress of the higher papers.

He is currently doing mocks and comes home a bit sad ever day and says how hard the paper was. We reassure him that it doesn’t matter as he’s tried his best but also to remember that he only needs about 25% to pass. So if he feels that he’s answered 25% of the questions correctly then he can feel that it went well! What a ridiculous thing to say though. Well done you answered a quarter of the paper!

In terms of behaviour, it’s not too bad at DSs school but there are some disruptive children. Unfortunately, children like my DS, who are well behaved but low to middle ability, bear the brunt of this. The higher ability children are protected from it in the higher sets.

Funnily enough no one else threatens the teachers now because they know there’ll be consequences.

😮I’d hope no one threatens the teachers because they aren’t awful people not because they don’t want their kids to be thrown out of school!

@metellaestinatrio Your point is spot on. I’m naturally left of centre but I think the ideological consensus is going to be extremely strained over the next few years as there is so much engineering, politicking and a total lack of choice around things like education. I strongly believe in redistribution through the tax system so I’m happy to pay my fair share (would pay more too if it would make a real difference), but I also expect public services to work and I expect my child to be taken care of within them.

We left because state education as behaviour was out of control at primary. The independent secondary schools we’re looking at have none of the strictness or sanctions being advocated on this thread, behaviour is still good, academics are great with far far less homework than our local state school and the kids are much happier and friendlier. I’ve also had friends move to within 0.25 miles of the best schools in catchment. I won’t be judged or feel guilty for wanting a happy childhood and good education for my child when the alternatives are as described on this thread.

I think you need to look at Indy schools that generally do not have problems with behaviour. The over riding factor is that all the parents are invested in their child’s education as they are paying a bloody fortune for it! So you don’t really get many uninvolved parents. Getting into trouble and being naughty is seem as pretty pathetic by the other students - it’s cool to be involved with music, sport and get good grades. The occasional naughty one in a class is treated with disdain. Since by DD has been in private ( 10 years) the naughtiest thing that’s ever happened is a bit of answering back to the teacher and not doing homework - both of which is a scandal for weeks and the children involved are heavily sanctioned .Day to day, there aren’t many silly rules and sanctions for little misdemeanours and everyone respects each other. Children are treated and known as individuals.

My DC were educated in Alabama.

They went to an elementary school in the richest part of town but then transferred to a middle school in the poorest. Half the places at that middle school were by lottery and the other half by grades. A lot of these families of the pupils were living in horrible conditions with parents working two or three jobs to make ends meet, two or three families to a flat. The first day of school those parents were lined up down the street to get their children enrolled and pick up computers and sort out classes.

There was very little class disruption (apart from the 8th grade percussion section in band class) and it was because the parents valued their children's education, respected the teachers and admin. staff, and brought their children up to treat teachers with respect. In turn the teachers were able to treat the children in a friendly, kind way not the adversarial way that so often happens. Dress codes were not enforced and children could go to the toilet during lessons without a whole palaver over it.

It comes down to parenting IMO.

A little example for you. Year 8 end of year exam. I caught two girls talking and pointing to each others papers. I went over and quietly reminded them (as to not disturb the rest of the class) that this was an exam and if they did that in a GSCE or formal exam, the exam would be void. Five minutes later I caught them talking, giggling and reaching to each others papers again. I went over and removed their papers and told them to get a book out or revise for another exam. Again, I did this quietly as to avoid disturbing the class who were still working.
I drew a line through the papers and put them on my desk. I spoke to both girls again at the end and explained why I’d done what I’d done and reminded them of the consequences if they’d done that in a GCSE. I told them they would not receive an exam mark as a result of their actions (not an issue, just KS3 exams that we set as a school to monitor progress).

The next morning I was hauled into the heads office as parent of one child had complained that I had humiliated her and she should have been able to finish the exam regardless of what she did, because it wasn’t fair to make her feel that way. The head made me let the girls resit the exam and wanted me to apologise to the girls (I refused the latter!). Both girls turned up to the ‘resit’ a few days later with smirks on their faces.

That is what a lot of teachers are dealing with where management is concerned. Fear of parents and the repercussions. Children racing home to whinge to mum regardless of what they have done, and mum coming in on the bounce.

Agree with all of this. Why is it bad to rescue your child from a school in which their learning is constantly disrupted and bullying and violence is unchecked? You would be failing in your duty as a parent if you have the means to radically improve your child’s educational outcomes but sat on your hands.

It infuriates me so much that absolutely NOTHING is done about this. Poor behaviour and disruption is totally unaddressed. Cosy chats and hot chocolate with the HT does not stop a child from being violent and disruptive but we all have to pretend that it does because ‘inclusion’, and inclusion is much cheaper than alternatives. And all the time the education provided to state school pupils in these schools disappears down the plug hole. Politicians need to recognise the issue and take meaningful action - NOW.

Something I see on these threads a lot is that truancy was more of an issue in the past whereas behaviour/respect is the issue now.

I wonder if what we might be seeing is that the kids who would have previously truanted and the parents would be failing to prevent this behaviour, because they are ineffectual, or don't see the value in education, or don't respect school, are the same ones (effectively, obviously not literally!) as the ones who aren't engaging now and who are being disruptive and the parents don't back up school staff etc. And then there will be a rubbing off effect where pupils who might have been too timid to instigate such behaviour on their own are seeing the more bolshy kids effectively get away with it and it makes it feel more acceptable so they start copying it too. Hence the culture within schools has changed.

Not sure exactly what you'd do to fix that since clearly just allowing all the disengaged kids to bunk off isn't a solution.