To want a way to label the reasonable fear of the variety of Islam that wishes to impose Sharia law?

[Oodiks]

I understand that there are different sects within Islam and that while some pose no concerns, others do. I am horrified at the type of Sharia law imposed in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan, which denies women human rights, but it's hard to talk about those reasonable fears without being labelled Islamophobic. It's not unreasonable to fear a religion that imposes such harsh lives on women.

Please provide me with an argument to support that they are not more different than a bullet and a spear hitting us.
In the UK, as 24th Nov 2024.

You are right in historical contexts and some countries currently ruled by political regimes imposing their version of a religion, because these politicians do not actually follow or believe in said religion for real.

1. Power and Authority: Both religion and politics revolve around the establishment and exercise of authority. In religion, this authority often derives from divine or spiritual mandates, while in politics, it stems from constitutions, laws, or the will of the people. Both systems organize societies by creating hierarchies and structures that demand allegiance and obedience.
2. Community and Belonging: Religion and politics foster a sense of identity and belonging. Religious groups are built around shared beliefs, rituals, and values, much like political entities are grounded in ideologies, constitutions, and national identities. Both provide frameworks through which individuals connect with larger communities and understand their roles within society.
3. Moral and Ethical Guidelines: Both realms establish codes of conduct for individuals and communities. Religions define right and wrong through doctrines, commandments, and sacred texts, while politics enacts laws, regulations, and policies. In both cases, these systems aim to shape behavior, promote societal harmony, and address questions of justice and equity.
4. Rituals and Symbolism: Religion and politics rely on rituals, symbols, and ceremonies to solidify their influence. Religious practices include prayer, worship, and sacraments, while politics employs elections, oaths, and state ceremonies. Flags, hymns, and sacred texts function similarly to religious symbols, evoking loyalty and shared purpose.
5. Struggles for Influence: Throughout history, religion and politics have been intertwined in power struggles. Both seek to influence hearts and minds, often overlapping in governance, lawmaking, and cultural norms. Whether through crusades or revolutions, both have demonstrated their ability to mobilize people for causes rooted in deeply held beliefs.

Religion and politics are mirrors of each other, shaping societies through their shared focus on authority, identity, morality, symbolism, and influence.

Yes @SerendipityJane
What I am asking is: do you see a separation between religion and political system in the UK today?

From your point, for the UK, as today:

1. Power and Authority: belong exclusively to the political system. Religions do not longer have power over anyone. ( bar the presence of the CoE in the House of Lords, which may be eventually be addressed. But, they do exercise some level of power through the political system, not the religious)
2. Community and belonging. That is a crucial part of making multiculturalism work actually. That both the community sense nurtured by the politics and religions can align enough to give a sound sense of belonging to all those living in the country. It is a constant balance, where culture, politics and religion meet indeed.
3. Moral and Ethical guidelines. The laws created by the political system trump any religion in the UK. Much of our freedoms come from this separation indeed.
4. Rituals and Simbolism: completely separated. Just read your own post. A completely separated set for religion and politic system.
5. Struggles for influence: connected to point 2. Sure individuals are entitled to follow their religion beliefs and practices. But they are also obliged to respect the law and freedom of others. It is politics, again, which has the upper hand, as they will arrest or fine anyone acting against the law.

They do have a similar structure and they have been in the same hands, the same thing really, at points of UK's history, but today they are separate systems. The secular political system has the power. We vote who we want to take control of it every 4-5 years. You do not need religion, at least you want it. It is your personal decision.
Do you agree with this? Or do you still think they are the same, today?

What I am asking is: do you see a separation between religion and political system in the UK today?

Not exactly as the question posed at 16:21, I submit.

The factual answer is (obviously) no. We have (nominally Christian) priests entwined in our lawmaking. Not out of any care for the nations spiritual well being, but as an accident of history when the Church was the biggest landowner after the crown so obviously had to have a say in the laws of the(ir) land.

When we don't have Lords spiritual, and the Head of State is not also the head of the nations favourite church, I could answer differently.

@SerendipityJane
As imperfect as it is, I do see politics and religion separated enough at present, in UK.
Yes, I do agree with a reform of the House of Lords to remove both birth rights and the church presence. And I think it will happen.

Just to highlight a conversation between Andrew Gold and Ayaan Hirsi Ali that is relevant to this debate - only aired tonight.

Talk about Bill and Ben.

'Yeah, can't believe what happened in the UK. People sharing information were imprisoned. Obviously the government are colluding with Muslims.

What the West needs to do is get rid off the Geneva Convention, and in Britain the ECHR. Word gets round that you can do anything you like such as rape or burglarise and you get two weeks community service.

Hardened criminals were released from prison to make way for innocent people sharing information. People should be deported if they commit crime and sensible people need to take over.

Look what happened in Turkey, that's very likely to happen in the UK. '

Thanks for the laugh.

I wasn't planning on adding anything to this thread as, similar to the Middle East conflict threads and a number of pro Palestinian posts on this thread, the comments go round in circles with the same phrases chanted repeatedly. A poster upthread mentioned that they recognise similar styles of writing in lots of posts from allegedly different posters. I've noticed this too.
I would like to say that negative Christian cultural history keeps being dragged up in order to equate Christianity with Islam - slavery, child abuse, burning of heretics etc. I think someone even mentioned the Crusades, for goodness sake. The point is that Christians and western culture openly acknowledge that these behaviours were wrong and that they are no longer state sanctioned or accepted. It's all history and in the past. This is not the case with Islam, slavery still exists and is accepted in many Muslim countries, not to mention the disgraceful abusive treatment of women and girls.
Waiting for a response from the usual suspects.

? Slavery, VAWG and child abuse are not all in the past in Christian countries.

Putin literally approved a law that allows wife beating.
We look the other way at modern sex trafficking and slavery. Yes it is illegal but there isn’t the will to put it in the past so it is very much with us.
The USA has overturned the right to an abortion- women are dying due to sepsis from miscarriages, others are being forced to birth babies.
Child abuse is rife.
Rape convictions are at 1 in 1,000 so is rape really illegal and wrong? Or is it just lip service?
Trump’s incoming Defence secretary is planning to bar American women from combat roles in the military.
The Rwandan genocide was Christians killing each other
The Bosnian genocide was Christians killing Muslims.

I don’t see Christianity as superior.

You have a very naive view of the West. The whole invasion of the ME by the States was done in the name of Christianity. Millions were slaughtered, that's not the distant past.

The debacle in Afghanistan was created by Western interference as was the current regime in Iran. The West has a habit of meddling in other countries and has done since the end of the Ottoman Empire.

The West tactically supported the overthrow of Egypt's democratically elected government. Instigated the fall of Libya's Jamahiriya, after crippling it with sanctions and they also prolonged the Syrian civil war. We won't mention the Arab Spring, Hussein, Yemen or other glaring examples.

The plutocracies in the Gulf States are wholeheartedly backed by Western powers even when they're perpetrating Islamic extremism.

Then of course, people complain when victims flee to the West to escape what they've created.

As for slavery we profit from countries with few if any human rights. All those cheap products you're buying come from China, which is currently perpetrating ethnic cleansing, and has no human rights, including the use of child labour. It's not the only country we exploit.

I won't blow your mind by telling you about cobalt and our exploitation of the Congo. Nor the repurcusions of colonisation which reverberate today.

Take a look at the current investigation into decades of Church sanctioned child abuse going on in Ireland or the Christians who perform FGM.

America has child marriage, four states don't have a minimum age. Let's not dwell on the Westerners who take advantage of sex trafficked women or lax laws in developing countries where they prey on women and children.

I await frothing from the usual suspects.

That post was quite foamy.

@username8348 your post reads as if its from ChatGBT. Your attitude highlights exactly what's wrong with the attitudes of some Muslims. I'd suggest you tell me what posiive things Islam does for women - it won't take up too much of your time.

I'm sure you're aware that the UK is experiencing a crisis in VAWAG yet you want to deflect and point the finger at other cultures.

Look at what's recently happened in France and tell me with a straight face that Europe doesn't have a misogyny problem. You could also take a look at domestic abuse stats in the States if you were interested but you're not.

You just want to score cheap points.

I've already explained how many regimes that oppress women in the ME were instigated or are supported by the West. Instead of engaging like an adult you accuse people of using chat bots.

So if the West started it - which is a lot of rubbish - why are these regimes which oppress women continuing?

Also@username8348 you haven't answered my question about the positive things Islam does for women, you've just slagged off the West again. What good things does Islam provide for women?
I'm off to bed, I think it's time this thread came to a natural conclusion.

The point you're trying to make is that some cultures are superior to others and you're trying to hang your argument on women's rights.

You have the internet at your fingertips and can look up Islam and women's rights. As I'm sure you're aware how Islam is interpreted is also dependent on culture and individuals within that culture.

Instead of dismissing things as 'rubbish' or chat bots, counter the argument. I'd like to hear why you don't think the West is responsible for the current state of Afghanistan or the regime in Iran. How you know Western countries haven't interfered in other countries politics.

I’m not aware of any Christian or Jewish sects that demand women and girls hide themselves from public view and are prohibited from speaking or even laughing. Modest dress codes, certainly, but completely shrouded?

All Abrahamic religions are misogynist. I believe in Israel due to 'modesty' women have been largely erased from advertising and magazines. Orthodox men even tried to get women to sit at the back of the bus, which was deemed illegal.

The major faiths all have sects that wear head coverings and require modest dress.

You're referring to Afghanistan as though it's somehow representative of all of Islam. Most people are aware that Afghanistan is not how the majority of Muslims choose to interpret their faith.

The Taliban are an authoritarian regime who have reduced women's lives to an open prison.

The erasure of women from adverts is in a tiny specific part of Jerusalem run by the most extreme Hasidic sect. It is constantly condemned by the Israeli government and rest of Israeli society. Although even in this extreme community, women still work, go to school and are very much allowed to talk in public and laugh.

in the rest of Israel, women wear the same clothes as in the West. I walked down the road in Tel Aviv by the beach in only a bikini, and nobody batted an eye.

Islam doesn’t attract more extremists than any other religion.

As for Gaza - well maybe the situation they are in is the problem?

I believe the issue began as small and gradually expanded:

"Eventually, the guidelines on modesty spread to some segments of the non-Orthodox world, especially businesses and organizations with Orthodox clients.

From 2004 to 2012, Israel’s largest transportation company, Egged, stopped running advertisements with women’s photos in Jerusalem after the ads were repeatedly defaced. In 2017, the furniture manufacturer Ikea created an alternative Israeli catalog without a single photo of a woman. Both Egged and Ikea backtracked after public pressure.

But against the urging of women’s rights and human rights organizations, many non-Orthodox businesses, banks, cellphone companies, health maintenance organizations and even government agencies continue to show only men in their advertising, at least in some locations."
https://religionnews.com/2023/07/21/appealing-to-orthodox-jews-israeli-media-remove-women-from-view/

@southpawsofthenorth how do you view practises in Afghanistan v the U.K.?

I think you’ve @ the wrong person?
I didn’t say anything about Afghanistan.

this exists in a very tiny part of Israel and is condemned by most in government. The difference with Afghanistan and Iran etc is that it is the government themselves issuing laws and their police forces beating women who don’t comply. The vast majority of Israel has women on billboards, in Parliament and leading units in the army.

With Egged, they stopped their women ban on adverts after they were threatened with fines by the government. It’s hardly comparable to the Taliban.

Do you understand the difference between religion and culture? Do you understand how some regime interpret their religious texts to suit their agenda? Do you know anything about Islam, except what the media portraits?
Your posts tell me you don't. In fairness, you are not the only one on this thread who are happy to expose their ignorance and lack of critical thinking, regarding Islam.
In this day and age, to remain ignorant is a choice.