To want a way to label the reasonable fear of the variety of Islam that wishes to impose Sharia law?

[Oodiks]

I understand that there are different sects within Islam and that while some pose no concerns, others do. I am horrified at the type of Sharia law imposed in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan, which denies women human rights, but it's hard to talk about those reasonable fears without being labelled Islamophobic. It's not unreasonable to fear a religion that imposes such harsh lives on women.

Muslim immigrants from many Muslim countries are likely to have non-working wives and bring less money into the economy than other immigrant groups. They bring with them a religion that as it is practised is anti women and anti state (in the sense Sharia law is above UK law and represents a parallel justice system). Many Muslims countries exporting their citizens have less education and are more rural than the UK on average thus their people tend to have more regressive social values (for example on homosexuality). Muslim families tend to have many children (more than the replacement rate). I'm not sure why. Is this because of a lack of education on family planning or cultural attitudes to contraception or rather a 'full quiver' philosophy?

None of this would per se be a problem other than for the population size. The provincial city I was brought up in for example is highly diverse in terms of religious sects but they are all small and not very visible. The city is generally a very tolerant place. However, the problem today is with an increasing population of Muslims from rural, conservative countries. They are becoming a significant political force in the city and the change is creating a sense of....let's say unrest.

Lack of labour laws including maternity leave, is cultural. Americans aren't prepared to pay more tax to help others or put people before profit.

However, the problem today is with an increasing population of Muslims from rural, conservative countries. They are becoming a significant political force in the city and the change is creating a sense of....let's say unrest.

But is that a reflection of the fact that a lot of "indigenous" (to use a word which will probably spark a fucktonne of misunderstanding) population take very little if any interest in the political process ?

When I was at University, a common whinge was how "leftie" the student union was. Except only about 40-50% of students who could vote ultimately did.

Even this year - in what should have been an election of fury and outrage - 1 in 3 people couldn't give a toss about how the UK is run. But I bet they will whine a lot louder than the 2 in 3 that got off their arse and at least tried to do something about it.

@Huffalumps
”Many Muslims countries exporting their citizens have less education and are more rural than the UK on average thus their people tend to have more regressive social values..”

The Muslims here are not less educated…..

From the ONS
The "Level 4 or above" category also had the largest variation across religious groups, ranging from 21 percentage points higher than the overall population for the "Hindu" group (54.8%) to 2.2 percentage points lower for people who identified as "Christian" (31.6%).

Among the overall population, females were more likely to have "Level 4 or above" qualifications (34.6%, compared with 33.0% of males). This was true for most religious groups. However, this pattern was reversed among people who identified as "Hindu" (with 56.5% males and 53.2% females) and "Jewish" (50.5% males, 48.1% females), the group with the next highest percentage of "Level 4 or above" qualifications.

They have labour laws though. There isn’t a lack of them.
Americans also pay tax to help others- Medicare, social security, property taxes fund schools, etc.

“They bring with them a religion that as it is practised is anti women and anti state (in the sense Sharia law is above UK law and represents a parallel justice system).”

It’s not the entire religion though. You are conflating a tiny minority of extremists with all Muslims. It’s no different from conflating the Church of Latter Day Saints with all Christians.

However, the problem today is with an increasing population of Muslims from rural, conservative countries. They are becoming a significant political force in the city and the change is creating a sense of....let's say unrest.

Why is it a problem? We live in a democracy, yes? So that means minorities have a voice. And at 3% of the U.K. population, they are hardly a “significant political force” especially when 90% of the 3% are going to be liberal minded Muslims that believe in a secular society.

I know many post doctorate Muslims, I certainly didn't say Muslims aren't educated, how dumb I would be. I said many immigrant families come from Muslim countries that lack education. They are also on average more rural than the UK. These are environmental and social influences on the values of immigrant families from these places eg a certain Muslim immigrant population encourages the tradition of cousin marriage leading to above average incidents of congenital illnesses in children

So you are saying it's ok import extremists because there is only a small minority. What sort of proportion is acceptable for you?

Except they don’t lack education. The ONS shows they are just as qualified as the average. So what on different cultures. We used to encourage cousins to marry as well. Heck the late Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip were cousins! So what on city versus rural- do you have something against rural people? There are many here too.,

90% of the 3% are liberal? Really? Where did you get your figures? I recall something like half of Muslims have pretty unliberal attitudes wrt gay men. I could be wrong and would be happy to be corrected.

I meant globally but fair point.

One persons extremist is another persons devout practitioner ...

No, I am saying the likelihood of extremist Islamists taking over the U.K. Government is infinitesimally small. There will never be be enough of them. We have laws preventing it. Finally, none of the extremists want to come here- they’d rather go to Afghanistan than the U.K. The Muslim refugees fleeing Afghanistan are doing so because they want to live in a liberal society.

Islam does not cause these issues. They are caused by (surprise, surprise) men.

The Qur'an does not forbid women to work. It does not force them into the niqab either. The prophet Mohammed was very clear that men should not beat their wives and that women should never be prevented from visiting mosques. A Muslim from a more tolerant country might tell you that 'Yes, our religion forbids homosexual activity but the Qur'an also tells us to concentrate on our own actions and keep our noses out of other people's business'.

It is governments who impose such rules. Governments that are made up of men.

This.

Terms are used to shut people up. Islamophobia or racism used to shut down things like the Rochdale abuse scandals... worries about appearing racist meant girls were ignored.

Shit treatment of girls and women should be called out regardless of 'culture' or religion.

Nothing in the Bible (well, the nice bit) prohibits women priests. "Christians" did that all by themselves.

A brief study of pre-Augustine Christianity in the British Isles is a fascinating waste of a few hours.

Brainwashed?

Lack of thinking?

Why did you convert?

There is no national law giving maternity pay and Americans don't tend to have statutory labour laws. A worker's rights can often be circumvented or disregarded in their contracts.

Medicare is very limited in who is covered.

I've not converted. I've been trying to search for truth and I'm stuck between choosing Christianity and Islam.

Which has nicer food ?

Total non argument comparing Islamist extremists to Christian extremists in the contemporary world.

Who is....

Beheading/slicing throats
Forcing girls into marriage with older men and cousins and killing them if they don't
Engaging in FGM
Covering all post pubescent females in shrouds
Nodding heads towards a para legal system deemed to supersede the rule of law of the country

This is happening in the UK and France not just in Iran or Afghanistan! This is only what is happening on European soil. In their countries of origin they are stoning to death and killing: adulterous women, women who refuse to veil, small time thieves....

I lived in France when the Bataclan hit. After the assassinations of cartoonists in Paris, basically every shop had signs in their windows 'Je suis Charlie'. Priests in churches had their throats sliced. The armed police took down a siege of a kosher supermarket where Islamists killed Jews. A Hamas publication praised the actions. Interestingly, a Bali Muslim immigrant worker was awarded french citizenship for his courageous actions during this siege. No one (other than the skinheads we should all ignore) is making crass generalisations and blaming 'all Muslims'. The primary schools were drilling for Islamic style terrorist attacks. My 4 year old had to practise hiding under the school table 😢😢. Imagine that! It was an awful time for the country.

None of these things are happening in the contemporary world at the hands of Christian extremists to my knowledge. Again, I'd be happy to be corrected. If once upon a time the scourge of the world was Catholicism or Christian extremism, it doesn't exist today and hasn't for centuries. And indeed, that fact it existed is hardly excuse for current day extremism.

Be careful what you wish for

Islam will fill a vacuum and it will be too late

I remember a thread probably a decade ago where I argued that I was concerned about a military draft in the UK. I was flamed at the absurdity of my claim. War in Europe? Hardly.

So no. As of today there's a very small risk of Sharia law in the UK. However, we are seeing a burgeoning immigrant population. We are seeing Sharia law courts in the UK (for decades). We have seen members of our Muslim communities join ISIS and commit terrible terrorist attacks. Much is made of right wing terrorism yet the largest threat by far comes from the Islamists. We have seen campaigning women politicians threatened and booed this last election. We have seen a growing political representation in reaction to the Hamas terrorism in the Middle East. There is a growing trend for modest attire, increasing numbers of shrouded ladies and young teenagers in our market towns (that cuts me to the quick, my daughter is 11). It's not going in the right direction is it? I couldn't say where we will be in 20, 50 years time. Look at where we were in the 50s compared to today. Is it envisagable that Sharia law will ever become the rule of law in the UK? The answer for me is yes, it is.

You seek truth in books written by men?