Are men disposable?

[BigFishLittleFish10]

My husband believes that men are disposable.

His views -

Men are f&@!ed over after a divorce and the woman end up with everything/custody of the children.

Men are used by society, worked to death then disposed of when society is finished with them.

Male suicide is an epidemic and society seeing men as disposable is one of the reasons.

Women and Mothers are cherished. Men are thrown away.

He’s made reference to women and children first on the Titanic and how the men were left to die.

Men dying in wars etc.

He refuses to believe that women face death, sexual assaults and violence in romantic relationships more than men face violence at the hands of their partners.

Believes that men have harder lives than women.

This week our son had a medical issue and I knew (gut instinct) that he wasn’t right and needed attention. I mentioned “Mothers intuition” and that riled him up - “Dads don’t matter then!”

He essentially has a chip on his shoulder about the issue.

I’ll be leaving the marriage eventually (other issues) but just wondering what everyone’s views are on this topic? Thanks.

It's not women's fault. It's not the fault of the men that are used as can fodder either.

Also, and this applies to men and women, the way to free yourself from society's patriarchal expectations is just to do it. No one's going to do it for you. If you don't want to fight in a war then don't. If you don't want to stay at home and spend your life nurturing people then don't. Structural issues are real but you can only blame them so much for your personal circumstances. If you're a good person who treats people around you, and the society around you, with kindness, you will be indisposable to them.

That's embarrassing! I wish you could go back and edit on the app.

Obviously most DV/SA victims are female and most perpetrators are male. 🤦‍♀️

I was reading the FB of a man who was killed by his female partner. It was a very public case last year. He was completely broken down by her. Whenever he put up a post/selfie, there'd be encouragement from the older women in hus life, every male comment was 'still ugly' etc. During Covid I supported a older male neighbour, whose social life comes from pubs. I had positivity from other women, but the men were accusing him of being a perv etc. I don't see men around me generally supporting men tbh.

@Edingril I don't see that happening amongst the WC. Up until the 80's (Thatcher's Liverpool) all of the women worked. Then after decent ML and childcare help, women were equally back in the workplace. Considering the birth rate is dropping, your theory doesn't hold.

Most wars are started by men. Most crimes, including physical, sexual, emotional and financial abuse of their partners, are committed by men.

Despite most women working and earning money, it is often the case that they do the lion's share of necessary unpaid work at home, often because if they don't do it, their male partners won't, leading to neglected DC in a chaotic home.

Men who behave like decent human beings and treat women like equals are cherished. It is violent, abusive, lazy, selfish arseholes of either sex that need to be 'thrown away'.

Yes, this is the thing. Men bleat on about how there’s all these charitable services for women but very little for men. But that’s because generally, charitable services for women are set up and run…..by women. Men are welcome to do the same to support other men but they don’t want to do that. They want women to do it for them.

It’s like international men’s and women’s days…the only time many men are interested in the men’s day is on international women’s day…when they whine and ask what about the menz, only to be told there actually is a men’s day but lo and behold do any of them get involved in that? Nope!

@Ponoka7 I'm not propsing that this is either-or. And I'm not really commenting on your specific cases, or suggesting the men (or others) around those people did enough, or did the right things.

But you might be seeing men around you supporting men, but just not be recognising it.

Those "still ugly" comments are entirely positive. If I were depressed (as I have been at times) and I posted something, and got five different men responding that, I'd be really heartened. I'm not forgotten, I'm still in the gang, and I'm not pitied. Five people took time out for me.

The older relatives offering supportive words: that's a mixed bag. It might be exactly what I needed. It might also be difficult. I'm being examined, something is expected from me that I'm obviously not doing right, and any response is going to be effortful.

It reminds me a bit of (I think) Victoria Coren Mitchell's observation (or perhaps Helen Joyce) that she had seen a group of men doing metal detecting together. They met, exchanged a few words, and spent a couple of hours fifty metres apart in a field, then a few more words, then home. Here realisation was that these men are socialising, succesfully. That's not the only way men relate. But it's an important one, often missed by women I think. The old stereotype that men communicate shoulder-to-shoulder, not face-to-face is, I think, largely true.

I think all people are pretty disposable to be honest. We have a global / capitalist / patriarchal mish mash and it's hard to know what impacts on what.

I think his issue is he sounds like he is blaming women for those problems. Like it's women that want to send thier sons to war, women that want to profit of their labour and so on. I'm not sure that's true in all his examples. A lot of company chiefs, politicians and so on are higher status males and they are the ones getting billions of pounds and reelected off these choices.

I think he has listening to toxic men like Andrew Tate and is repeating incel views.

I would not want someone like that in my life and around my kids.

If men weren't so selfish they would be less disposable.

The Divorce Gap – women s likelyee incomes fall by 33% following divorce, compared to just 18% for men | Legal & General

Don't let facts get in the way....

Men have rights too. Some men do get fucked over in divorce. Some women do alienate children. But many, many more women get fucked over financially and are left with a much larger financial and practical responsibility for children.

No decent person wants men to be committting suicide but this is a society issue not a women issue. Women are more likely to be the counsellors and therapists helping depressed men. But society needs to make getting mental health support more socially acceptable not just women.

Men who behave like decent human beings and treat women like equals are cherished. It is violent, abusive, lazy, selfish arseholes of either sex that need to be 'thrown away'.

But if you read Mumsnet it seems to be the arseholes that women choose to marry/set up home with.

Most are disposable, but some can be recycled.

Look for the symbol (usually on the nape of the neck) to determine which sort you have.

Note: Older types may pre-date the introduction of these symbols and these should be discarded to avoid the risk of contaminating the small heap of recyclable ones.

If you're using the Titanic as your example then I think you've already lost the argument. The Titanic happened over 100 years ago in an era when women weren't even considered full citizens. We don't apply the same principles now, if there's an emergency plane landing there's no "women and children first", it's everyone for themselves.

I think suicide amongst women would be higher if it's wasn't for loyalty to children. You often see threads on here where women say "I desperately want to end it all but I can't do it to my kids". Whereas men are more likely to see themselves as a burden.

One thing that is true though is that men are (on average) much quicker to move on after the death of a partner. Widowers over 60 are 15 times more likely to remarry than widows with 61% of men finding a new long term partner within 2 years. So how's that for disposable?

And keep in having children with again and again then go on to have more with men who don't see their other children

Male suicide is an epidemic and society seeing men as disposable is one of the reasons.
More women attempt suicide than men. More men are successful because men are more violent so they tend to use more violent methods.

Do you have any links to data about suicide attempts as opposed to suicides? According to ONS three times as many men as women commit suicide in England and Wales - 17.4 deaths per 100,000 for men and 5.7 per 100,000 for women in 2023.

The reason is men usually chose more violent ways to end their lives - guns etc. Women tend to have worse mental health but struggle through therapy and anti-depressants whereas men will drink and not talk to anyone. Again it's the toxic masculinity that causes their solitary idealisation and ultimately leads to suicide.

He refuses to believe that women face death, sexual assaults and violence in romantic relationships more than men face violence at the hands of their partners.

In the UK, a women is killed every 3 days by a man. How often are men killed by women?

Ew! Just get rid of this wanna-be incel and let him join his loser "friends".

If any men reading this, or women supporting partners who are battling depression, do reach out to charities like CALM if you are feeling suicidal.

I think some of it is true. Men are seen as disposable in war.

To be clear, we don't actually know what he said. It is hearsay from his estranged wife, so potentially subject to spin, exaggeration and over simplification. Just saying. Long live the kangaroo court.

By other men...
In fact I'd suggest that is the nub of it. In general men see themselves and others as disposable. Women are taught to fight for everyone to be cherished against that in a patriarchy, which is possibly why we are constantly at odds and trying to "fix" men, who see us as second class citizens and think stoic masculinity is better because other men tell them this because doing nothing is easier

It's true that men do suffer in society, but it's not because of female superiority. Rather, I would argue, it's due to patriarchy, which fucks men up just as much as women. Patriarchy presents men as the sexually dominant figure, for example, which is why male survivors of SA at the hands of women are less likely to be believed. Not because of women, but because of toxic masculinity. Ditto fighting in wars - men are presented within patriarchy as the natural 'protectors' and therefore it makes sense in a patriarchal context for them to be the fighters.

I find it disturbing and sad that he refuses to acknowlege that women are very much oppressed by society. Sounds like he's been online a bit too much and on 'red pill' spaces. The issue isn't with acknowledging that men have a rough time of it - that's completely true and a fair point. The issue is with him suggesting that men having a rough time in society is mutually exclusive with female oppression in society. Both things can be true at the same time and, overall, men are in a privileged position over women. At a certain point you can't communicate with people, and if he's being awful to you I'd give him the sack.

Yes.
Full stop.
Since I hit 42 some years ago, I started feeling completely different about myself, the whole society and men in particular.
Oddly, also started appreciating my 75 yo husband much more, but the rest, fuck them.