Sara Sharif case - update - horrifying

[amIloud]

This case is just beyond the realms of horrifying,

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgl461xwg3do

This poor child.

My goodness 😳 UK police must be a soft touch compared to that.

I hadn't realised there was no extradition treaty between Pakistan and UK. But it answers something else why the Glasgow MP Mohamad Sarwar was involved in getting 3 murderers back from Pakistan after they killed a young boy in Glasgow. I can't remember the details it's a while ago but it answers the question.

@Tandora

agree with you 100%

There should be a blanket ban on men who commit DV against their partner being allowed access to their children.

No, i'm not defending the courts decision, it was clearly the wrong one BUT you didn't sit through the hearing.

Its easy to be wise after the event, perhaps see what comes out in the inquiry first.

My DD has recently sat through a funding hearing for a severely disabled person, the decision, made by the private company employee, is to cut funding, the 3 trained medical professions, advocating for this person, are shocked, they'll help appeal but they really haven't the time to do this, so it will be in their own time.
Even if the decision is reversed, the amount of days of therapy available, has already been cut.

My point is the people we think will protect the vulnerable are under huge pressure to cut cut and cut again.

Its no different in the courts systems either, be that family or criminal.

Or she has learning difficulties and was easily manipulated. Not saying that's what happened but possible

Having learning difficulties and being easily manipulated should not work as a defence for being an abusive parent or allowing abuse to happen on your watch by another parent/partner.

If someone's learning difficulties are such that they are incapable of exercising judgement or keeping their children safe and adequately cared for, then they are not fit to be a parent and their children should be removed permanently.

She DID tell police and court he abused them though?
She spoke very little english, probably didn't understand what she could have done/ her rights.
If she was herself abusive she should of course have her children taken.
But we don't 100% know what went on.
Bit strange to have one child taken to care and not the other two though?

I read that one of Sara's older siblings was found wandering alone in public twice at around 3 years old when in the care of Sara's bio mum. Once in the town centre and once in a shop.

@Tandora again, I don’t disagree with your sentiments. We all require answers from the serious case review, what happened is not acceptable.

And to be clear, I do think Sharif is the key perpetrator of abuse. I just don’t think it is as straightforward to reduce it to men vs women - the drip feed of information provided to the public at this stage changed my mind as it states concerns about Olga too. Both parents could not adequately care for her. It is a fact that a child was removed from their care, and not returned to Olga when she split from Sharif (or vice versa.) That suggests significant safeguarding concerns about both parties.

Also, a child witnessing abuse is also abuse even if it wasn’t happening to them.

A child who witnesses abuse can also go on to become an abuser even if it didn’t happen to them.

Also, an angry abusive parent who has so far only attacked or abused the mother ( or another person) may go on to also abuse a child left in their care.

It says She [child Z] was first taken into foster care for a short period in November 2014, when she was almost two, after "Z" complained of being bitten "very hard" by Ms Domin and "pinched and punched" by Sharif.

The child is describing abuse by BOTH parents whilst in foster care. Not sure why you think child would be lying about her mum abusing her?

Is it possible that she bit him because husband threatened to 'pour hot oil over her'? Or to do something very horrible to her child if she didn't comply?
What if he coerced to do that, the purpose being that he knew Judge will lap it up.
Or maybe she had money or food (hence no bedding) as he was in sole charge of finances.
Maybe the child was severely abused by him already and made to say those things.

It comes after an interview with Sara's mother, Olga Domin, re-emerged, where she said Sharif tried to set her on fire and strangle her with a belt - before he went on to murder the 10-year-old.
He “started to strangle me with a belt” and “tried to set fire on me once - he poured oil on me, but my cousin stopped him", she said.
At the time of Sara’s death, Ms Domin told TVN24: “There was a situation when [Sharif] told me not to go anywhere. I said I was going because my friend was waiting for me. He started to strangle me with a belt then.
“He tried to set me on fire once — he poured oil on me, but my cousin stopped him.
“And he simply locked me in a room. He locked me up for the whole day until the police arrived. When they showed up, he pretended that nothing had happened, that the door was open.”

You are really reaching here. Neither parent was fit to care for Sara and her siblings.

The child taken permanently into care is likely Olga's from a previous relationship. If you look at the dates, child Z was born before they met. Therefore, it makes sense that this child would not have ended up living with U alone.

Hard to make out, at a distance, what was going on with Olga. An abusive relationship, precarious lifestyle (they lived in a homeless unit at one point), and possible learning difficulties is not going to bring out the best in anyone as a parent. Sounds like, at best, she absolutely couldn't cope in the circumstances.

Both parents could not adequately care for her. It is a fact that a child was removed from their care, and not returned to Olga when she split from Sharif (or vice versa.) That suggests significant safeguarding concerns about both parties.

or perhaps a misunderstanding of what was really happening in child z’s case as well?
Women are often blamed and threatened with removal of children because of abusive men …

I don’t understand your point…if her theoretical learning difficulties are that significant to the extent she can’t keep her kids safe, then it means the decision to remove children from her care was right.

Olga’s actions do not indicate that she could safeguard her children. She stayed in an abusive relationship, saw abuse against her children, and did not cooperate with authorities eg explaining the children’s abuse injuries as accidents due to another cause to contradict what Z told teachers. It was only years later when she split with Sharif, did she later say her children were telling the truth. She undermined her children at the worst time and they were abused further under her care in those interim years. There are also accusations from the children that Olga participated in the abuse. I don’t doubt that Sharif abused her too but Olga is a grown women. Those children didn’t have anyone else aside from Olga to protect them from harm - little kids need help from adults to be safe and she didn’t act.

I just don’t think it is as straightforward to reduce it to men vs women - the drip feed of information provided to the public at this stage changed my mind as it states concerns about Olga too

There is no doubt that Olga was not a perfect parent, she was an abused woman and likely highly vulnerable herself. However, did the evidence, if investigated properly , show that she was at least as dangerous as Sharif? If the evidence does not show this (it is implausible to me that it did since this is clearly not the reality) , then we need to ask why sharif was given the benefit of the doubt , and custody of this child, and not Olga.

This IS an issue related to gender bias and patriarchy . It is a systemic one . It is a seriously dangerous one . This is not the time for excuses/ benefit of the doubt for social services and the court. We need to be asking very serious questions, we need accountability, we need learning and we need it now

There is a big mix of terrible circumstances that have wrecked these kids lives. Cruelty, neglect, institutional failure.

But it is naive, and possibly sentimental, to cast Olga as a maternal possibility, made victim by Sharif alone.

There is Facebook and Instagram evidence and strong suggestion in the public domain , as well as main stream media coverage, that she was a drug user, involved in sex work (not in itself a reason to remove children, of course), negligent of her older child before she met US, unstable, and involved in a sham marriage made for one of their benefits (she spoke almost no English when she married him. Who got the visa? Given that his would have been a student visa?) .

i have no doubt that she was severely abused by US, that this would have exacerbated any poor parenting as well as undermining her ability to fight for her children in the courts.

She didn’t attend court. She isn’t fighting for the return of her son from Pakistan…

I feel for her, and see US as the chief abuser and her a victim, but feel the need to be realistic about her own role in these children’s lives.

@Tandora Look, I think this debate is going off on a tangent. It comes across that you are desperate to spin this into men vs women but the facts do not support that.

In this specific death, both biological parents have failings. Sometimes the very things that make someone vulnerable, also make them unsuitable to appropriately care for children.

I have never made excuses for the court, nor have I asked for a lack of accountability/answers. I have posted loads about the inconsistencies. I am outraged at her death. There is a serious case review underway where we will get answers, though it may take several months or years before it is released to the public.

desperate to spin this?

I’m desperate to address the systemic gender bias in the family courts, and prioritisation of the “rights” of access to children for seriously dangerous men with long and serious histories of domestic violence. I’m desperate to address this because it’s so dangerous to children. If people are not willing to ask questions about this in this case, and are so quick to deflect/ dismiss the issue, then I despair, I really do.

In this specific death, both biological parents have failings.

Did the evidence show that Olga was at least as dangerous as Sharif?

*and are so quick to deflect/ dismiss the issue as “tangential”…

Re: "sham marriage made for one of their benefits" - the benefit was entirely his. She did not need a visa - she was an EU citizen with every right to live in the UK should she have wished to (and there is no evidence she particularly did wish to). He was deliberately looking for a Polish woman to marry in order to get EU citizenship, as his student visa was running out. She was his third Polish girlfriend, all of them coercive whirlwind "romances". He actually met her in Poland where he had chased his ex.

He never stopped abusing the his kids. He simply learned what to say/do, to get authorities off his back.

You are most likely absolutely right.

He was the one who filmed Sara accusing Olga of abuse, which led to the family court placing Sara with him

I thought one parent using recorded evidence made of the child against the other parent in court was not encouraged by courts.

This is an excerpt from an article (my bolding)
February 2023
The Use of Covert Recordings Within Family Proceedings
by Gaby Hardwicke Solicitors

The court’s permission will be required before such evidence can be relied upon and the court has a general discretion to weigh up factors including any breach of Data Protection or a right to respect for private and family life under the Human Rights Act 1998, the manner in which the recordings were obtained, the relevance to the disputed issues in the case and probative value.

The use of covert recordings in proceedings involving children is generally discouraged, and we have had cases where the parents are expressly prohibited from recording future interactions, where the court deemed such recordings are not conducive to effective co-parenting.

Even where permission to rely on the recordings is given, this will be one form of evidence before the court and will not necessarily be conclusive, as the court will still consider all other forms of evidence (including from the parents themselves) and submissions made. Recordings may appear to be the clearest way of evidencing a particular incident, or behaviour, but the court is mindful that these should not always be taken at face value. For instance:

• Content may be manipulated to draw the other parent into making statements that can be taken out of context or steered for a particular purpose.
• The recording may have been edited or even ‘deep faked’.
• There may be other relevant recordings.
• The desire to take a recording in this setting could be an indication of paranoia or controlling behaviour.

The court may direct a parent who is seeking to rely on a recording to disclosure all unedited relevant recordings, rather than ‘cherry pick’ those helpful to their case. Reference to recordings could therefore end up working against the person taking the recording.

Any application to rely on recordings should be made promptly and well in advance of any fact finding or final hearing – in one reported case where a mother exhibited transcripts of audio recordings to her witness statement, without making any application for permission, the hearing was adjourned for the full recordings in the mother’s possession (over 100) to be disclosed and to allow the father time to consider them, which resulted in a 6 month delay. Ineffective management of audio/visual evidence could also result in adverse costs awards.

Recordings featuring a child themself in this context are unlikely to ever be permissible, and it has been held that such a recording would be clear breach of trust between the child and the parent, whether or not the child is aware of the recording. In one reported case, a parent went as far as sewing a recording device into the clothes of the child, unsurprisingly met with court disapproval.

In this specific death, both biological parents have failings.
Did the evidence show that Olga was at least as dangerous as Sharif?
Would Sara be alive right now if she were placed in the care of her mother?

I forgot this link to February 2022 article about recordings used as evidence in Family Courts which I quoted before www.gabyhardwicke.co.uk/news/the-use-of-covert-recordings-within-family-proceedings/

one of the massive failings in this case seems to be the insistence of the family court that she should be with one of her parents.

If there was proof that her mother was abusive then she should have been taken back into care. Not handed to her father who was known to be abusive.