Sara Sharif case - update - horrifying

[amIloud]

This case is just beyond the realms of horrifying,

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgl461xwg3do

This poor child.

That was me. I was not absolving Olga at all. I was saying we don't really know what went on in their life. That it might have not been as clear cut. That maybe he foced her to bite the child. I was not defending her, in fact said something like 'if she did that then she deserves whatever'

This is you behaving in an intimidating manner yet again, and putting words in people’s mouths yet again to prov

Im not doing any of these things. I simply said you posted the Reddit thread- which you did.

Please stop accusing and attacking me- it’s not ok and really innapropriate .
I’ve been perfectly civil to you. I did respond to one of your threads with an emoji, but I think that’s acceptable on mumsnet. The platform provides for it.

Given that Sara's sibling was twice found wandering alone in Woking aged 3 under the care of Sara's mother, it's not even certain she wouldn't have ended up dead.

During this time Olga was also being locked in a room for days by Sharif. I’m not sure how easy it would be for her to supervise her children if she’s locked in a room. I’m not saying this was what was happened when the children were wandering. We don’t know. But there was a context there that is missing. We need to know far far more about that context before we can really judge what was going on. All we have are tiny snippets. That is all I’m trying to say.

Here was Peonies post. The way you’re posting her suggestions as accepted possibilities is quite strange.

——————-

Is it possible that she bit him because husband threatened to 'pour hot oil over her'? Or to do something very horrible to her child if she didn't comply?
What if he coerced to do that, the purpose being that he knew Judge will lap it up.
Or maybe she had money or food (hence no bedding) as he was in sole charge of finances.
Maybe the child was severely abused by him already and made to say those things.

The Reddit post (if it’s even true) was likely referring to when the sibling lived with Urfan and Olga, hence comparing them to each other.

Yes, it's possible, we don't know what went in behind closed doors. Nowhere did I say I don't think she is a bad parent. This is entirely separate.
If you listen to her interview (I posted link before at some point), she says she was often locked up, he threated to do all those things.

you are posting her suggestions as accepted possibilities

??? what do you mean? I’m doing nothing of the sort. I simply said I don’t agree the suggestion was “outlandish”, but it’s a theory and we have zero evidence for it.

It’s the way you posted here ‘We don’t know what the circumstances around that were- one poster (was it even yourself?) suggested that maybe Sharif forced Batool and Olga to bite the children. ’

As if Peonies is aware of things that we are not aware of.

No one is demonising the mother with the same brush. Saying the mother was abusive and the father was abusive, is not saying the level or severity of the abuse is the same.

It is not misogyny to say the mother's parenting, from the evidence uncovered, was not adequate. If anything I find you consistently downplaying the mother's actions a form of misogyny, as if women can't be held accountable for what they do. I'm sure you won't agree with that but even a foreign national with poor English, learning difficulties and in an abusive relationship, has more choices than their child does.Olga was in an awful situation, but her children were in a worse one still.

Someone can be a victim of abuse, and also an abuser - being a victim yourself doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions or inactions which impact your children.

And once you/your children are under the notice of social services, they absolutely will judge you for not protecting your children, no matter your own struggles, and it's right that they do because your children have no choice and you as an adult, no matter how awful your.circumstances are, have agency that children don't have.

I understand you are just generally pointing out that the outcome for Sara would have been very difficult what ever had been decided for her including foster cate or adoption ; and that you are saying that her only being better off with her mother to the extent that ‘At least she wouldn’t be dead’ is a low bar indeed.

But I am not sure just how bad the mother was on a scale of 1-10 compared to Sharif’s 10? Was she deemed worse because as a woman she should have been better?

A known violent male being given custody was as low a bar as it’s possible to set.

Re,
Placed with her mother, who had a record for biting a child, possibly learning difficulties, and a history of violence and neglect of children;

Please if possible would you link to where these acts against the children by their mother are described in the evidence against the mother?

I know more about the final Family court decisions where the evidence seems unclear:

At the July hearing before the final one after which the children were placed with Sharif and Batool, the allegations against the mother came from Sharif himself. Sharif who was already known in past records (not shown) for abusing the mother.

These allegations from Sharif against the mother were in the social worker’s report for the final hearing which determined where the children would go next. Yet, the evidence of all the many acts of violence Sharif had committed previously were not in the report.

The report outlines allegations against Domin, which – as with other claims against both parents – were not tested in court, stating that Sara said [3rd party report from Sharif] she was “pinched, punched, threatened with lighters and being drowned in the bath by her mother”.

Domin went on to admit “smacking” Sara, then aged six, on the bottom but without leaving a mark, and to finding her behaviour “hard to manage”, but said further allegations against her were untrue

The allegations were not tried in court, and the mother had no representation. The mother denied the allegations.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/14/inexperienced-social-worker-sara-sharif-father-risk

As if Peonies is aware of things that we are not aware of

Not at all. It doesn’t imply this at all, it’s simply pointing out that there are contexts behind this incident that we don’t know about, and possibilities are even being discussed on this very thread .

Understood, but you should then also give @Anonymousess the benefit of the doubt about the Reddit post, instead of saying @Anonymousess thinks Olga is as bad as Urfan. Olga is demonstrably nowhere near as bad as Urfan.

All the children should have been placed in foster care!!! That is the option available when both your parents have abused you. You don't just give a child to a parent when there is evidence of such a violent history. There are good foster carers around. And ok the outcomes of children are poorer than average but a lot better than what happened to Sara. And from what Sara's headteacher said, she was a fun, bubbly child in the school. She must have been such a resilient child. And she might actually have done well under the guardianship of good foster carers and even later been adopted. She deserved a future! Why wasn't foster care considered for her? It's expensive but that's what the state should have done. Maybe her mother might have been able to improve her life enough to look after her in time too. Away from such a violent man. There were options for Sara. She was let down by her parents. But when the parents let her down, the state did not protect her. That's partly why we pay taxes for surely. To protect the most vulnerable like Sara.

instead of saying thinks Olga is as bad as Urfan

As i said in a pp I don’t actually think anyone on this thread thinks that rationally.
But I do worry about some unconscious bias , misogyny, that is leading people instinctively to hold Olga much more accountable than she really is. As a pp said- how bad is she on a scale of 1-10, compared to sharif? Are we holding her to a more strict standard / judging her more harshly because she’s a woman? Why did the social workers report contain untested accusations of violence by Olga, but not the very serious alegations against sharif?

But I am not sure just how bad the mother was on a scale of 1-10 compared to Sharif’s 10? Was she deemed worse because as a woman she should have been better?

No. By leaving Sharif, she was rendered homeless and couldn't put a stable roof over their heads

Custody went to Sharif, as there was 'no evidence' that he had abused the children

@Tandora Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say.
@Manara I know certain things that aren't in public domain but would never talk about them as it's not a first hand information.
I have a brain that just keeps thinking 'out of box' constantly and doesn't take things at face value. I'm sorry that it was taken that I thought she was a good parent. I think she was a better parent than him, but I don't know from abailable information if she was good enough parent to actually parent with support from SS/away from abusive husband. I'm sure more will come out soon.
For avoidance of doubt again the things I suggested might have happened were based on what I read/listened to/thought, NOT on what I heard separately. It might have involved foreign press at some point.

I think people need to remember also that when social workers weigh up risks, they look at likelihood. Olga might not have been malicious to Sara, but from what I've read wasn't a capable parent, including things like basic supervison, and her ability to manage & work on that was likely impaired by her learning disability.

Murdering a child is incredibly rare, and the social worker would never have known they were weighing up an incapable parent and one with murderous intent.

The only way we’ll get those answers is via a review / inquiry.

I agree that there is often an unconscious bias that the mother should have been strong enough to protect her child/ren.

In Olga’s case she wasn’t able to protect her child/ren. Whether that’s because she was abusive herself or she was a victim herself is not fully known.

It’s a great shame that she wasn’t able to be the strong, protective other parent that Sara needed, but that in no way lessens the depravity of what Urfan did. It was a perfect storm - Urfan’s violent abuse, the step-mum’s complicitness, a hapless social worker, a hasty judge and a weak mother.

Murdering a child is incredibly rare, and the social worker would never have known they were weighing up an incapable parent and one with murderous intent

There were repeated allegations of this man committing serious violence against women and children, including allegations that he threatened a woman with a knife and said he was going to kill her. I fully disagree that this social worker could “never have known” that Sara was at serious risk of (at least) serious physical injury in this man’s care.

This is where I think it went wrong. Harm being inflicted on children, beatings, cigarette burns and biting. These are signs of a conscious action to harm a child. They are not neglect. They are intended. Framing this as “not knowing how to parent” is wrong. We know that Urfan had to sign agreements not to use violence against children. This did not sound like someone who had no intent to harm.

The following is from the Guardian ( my bold):

Here is a timeline of 15 events leading up to her murder, which come from police, social services and school records heard during the seven-week trial at the Old Bailey.

11 January 2013
Sara Sharif is made the subject to a child protection plan at birth due to her father, Urfan Sharif, being accused of attacking three women including her biological mother, Olga Domin, as well as hitting and biting children. Sara is allowed to remain with her father.

22 February 2013
Social services and police are told that Sharif has slapped a child around the face.

7 May 2013
A social worker spots a burn mark on a child’s leg and Sharif claims it was a barbecue accident. Sharif failed to report the incident, contrary to a social services agreement. Five months later, a child is seen with a burn mark sustained from a domestic iron. Sharif tells social services the child had knocked into the iron.

2014
A child tells a social worker Sharif smashed up a TV and punched Domin.

November 2014
Sara is taken into foster care for a short stint after a child tells a social worker about a bite mark. A note from a social worker reads that Sara flinches when Sharif tells her off during a supervised contact session and appears surprised when he picks her up and cuddles her. Sara is later returned to her father.

December 2014
A child tells a social worker they do not like Sharif because he punches them all over their body and gives them lots of bruises.

29 January 2015
A social worker is told that Sharif waved a knife around at home in what he claimed was a “zombie” game. Social worker records from 2015 note allegations that Sharif hit and kicked Domin and the pair threatened to kill each other.

February 2015
A child tells their foster carer that Sharif used to hit them on the bottom with a belt.

2015
Olga Domin tells social services that Urfan Sharif tightened a belt around her neck. Sara is returned to Domin’s care later that year. A social worker who worked with the family around this time said female colleagues found Sharif “coercive”. One reported that Sharif told her she must have a mental illness. A social worker notes Sharif would get easily irritated during supervised meetings with Sara and she would shout at him to go away when he went over to her. In September 2015, a child is heard to say that Sharif hit and kicked them every day.

October 2019
Sharif applies to Guildford family court for custody of Sara. Sara has accused Domin of abuse, it is alleged during the trial, and it is understood that Surrey county council supports her return to her father because that is Sara’s preference.

6 June 2022
A teacher spots a bruise under Sara’s left eye, which is recorded in the school’s child protection online monitoring system (CPOMS). Sara initially does not reveal what happened, before saying another child hit her. The teacher raises concerns with Sara’s stepmother, Beinash Batool. A week later, Sharif informs staff he wants to homeschool Sara. She does not return to school until the start of the next academic year.

10 March 2023
A teacher spots Sara with bruises to her chin and right eye. Sara says she fell on roller skates and tries to cover her face with her headscarf. When she gives a different story to a safeguarding lead, the school contacts Surrey council’s children’s single point of access (CSPA) safeguarding line and makes a referral to social services. Sara is known to authorities but there has been no contact with her family for four years. Social services categorises the case as the second-highest priority and makes requests for information from wider agencies, before closing the case after six days.

17 March 2023
Batool is overheard referring to children as “bastards, motherfuckers and whores” in the playground. A report is logged on CPOMS and the school contacts CSPA on 20 March but a written referral is not made.

28 March 2023
Batool claims a mark on Sara’s cheek, which appears to be a bruise, has been caused by a pen. The teacher tells the school safeguarding lead. It is recorded on CPOMS.

17 April 2023
Sharif informs the headteacher that he will be homeschooling Sara with immediate effect. It is recorded on CPOMS. The school contacts the CSPA line for advice and is told to make a referral if there are concerns. Staff see Sara later that day at school pickup and she seems fine, even though Sharif has beaten her earlier that day, according to evidence heard in court. A referral is not made. She is never seen outside the home again.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/11/sara-sharif-death-what-were-the-missed-chances

This is all about the father’s abuses starting before Sara was even one year old, exccept for what he himself alleges in court Oct 2019.

Where is the evidence that Olga Domin was anywhere near as dangerous as Sharif?

Why does Batool refer to the children as whores? I feel concerned. Was Sharif beating Sara to death to punish her for his own covert lust and Batool blaming the little girl because she is a whore?

This is all about the father’s abuses starting before Sara was even one year old, exccept for what he himself alleges in court Oct 2019.
Where is the evidence that Olga Domin was anywhere near as dangerous as Sharif

Thank you.

Where is the evidence that Olga Domin was anywhere near as dangerous as Sharif?

In the BBC article linked upthread.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgedlr7qg1o.amp

This was because of growing concerns of neglect and violence in the family, including against one of Sara's siblings, referred to in court as "Z".

In 2010, "Z" was found alone in a shop aged just three. Later that year Sharif was arrested for assaulting Ms Domin. During the fight he hit "Z", leaving a hand print on the child's back.

In 2011, "Z" told teachers "daddy hit me", and the following year told them "mummy hit me". The child was found with a burn mark and was again discovered alone in public, this time in Woking Town Centre - half a mile from the family home.

Social workers recorded "unexplained injuries" to "Z" and another of Sara's siblings, referred to in court as "U". Before Sara was born there were further allegations of assaults against the children, all were denied.

Then there was an incident in 2013, when "Z" was burned by an iron. When social workers visited their home, they found no light bulbs or bedding in the children's bedrooms.
This meant Sara was under a care order soon after she was born. It gave the local authority legal responsibility for Sara and her two siblings, and social workers made frequent visits to the family home.

She was first taken into foster care for a short period in November 2014, when she was almost two, after "Z" complained of being bitten "very hard" by Ms Domin and "pinched and punched" by Sharif.

Foster carers noticed what looked like cigarette burns on both Sara and "U". Ms Domin and Sharif said they were chicken pox scars.

Sara and she would shout at him to go away when he went over to her. In September 2015, a child is heard to say that Sharif

Heartbreaking that a 2year old Sara was saying this and not being listened to.