New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

she just needs to send a friendly email explaining that she doesnt have any formal qualifications in French but she is happy to have a chat with a colleague in French to prove her ability. If this language is important they will be able to rustle up a french-speaking colleague to have a chat to her easily.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom Well if you can't get specific, it's impossible to comment. I know that the financial sector has strict compliance rules on things like this because I worked in investment banking for a long time and worked with many people from many different countries and who spoke many different languages. OP suggested her dd is in finance so that is why I have suggested it is a compliance issue and a box ticking exercise that needs to be completed.

I have no idea about other sectors and I certainly couldn't guess.

I also know that in France the regulatory process might be different.

Compliance in the UK is generally considered to be quite stringent and burdensome. Similarly in Germany. My experience with France was that it could be for SOME things, but they were different at times to the things we focused on here eg rules re employees, overtime etc were more challenging for the French offices often.

Ditto, German. Yes, I can understand everything, but I am not what I would call fluent. I am definitely fluent in English, so it's not false modesty.

My DD (trilingual in English, German + my mother tongue) will have to prove her English proficiency if she wants to go to university in English. English is listed as her native language - it is our family language - and she is a citizen of an English-speaking country. I told her to get an English-language certificate next year, before the end of high school, well in time.

Well, my citizenship and the fact that I spent most of my life in the UK, I guess. It wasn't my first job though, I suppose.

The point is though, as the OP says, they have moved the goalposts. They said French or Spanish and she can prove that she has the required level of Spanish, but now they're asking her to prove her level of French as well. Which is something she can do, but not overnight if they want her to take a specific qualification. I took a C2 exam in French with the Alliance Française and I had to apply about 4 months in advance for the next test date. So unless she can find an acceptable organisation which will test her and give her the results right away, her would be employer needs to accept that there will be a delay (probably of several months) or they can exercise some common sense on the grounds that she has met their original requirement to prove her level of French OR Spanish.

It should be fairly straight forward to take a qualification. The French embassy will be able to advise her.

It's not uncommon for companies to require an exam. She might speak fluent French with an unusual accent / dialect.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom I would be surprised if they didn't allow her to start the job, as long as she completes the est within a set time frame, and, most likely, has it confirmed and scheduled prior to starting.

Its also not about changing the goal posts. In her role, she is now going to be asked to itneract with clients in both Spanish and French and so she has to prove that she can do that. Otherwise, ironically, she might be in a situation where she can speak the language, but is not allowed to interact with clients in French. Similar to how sometimes with teachers or doctors they have to take some kind of test or conversion course when they move countries until they're allowed to teach/practice. It's not that anyone thinks they can't do the job, but for regulatory/insurance/compliance purposes, they have to have a local certtificate of some sort.

Yes but if you have certificates in English from English institutions, that will be the proof of your English ability. It won't just be because you lived there. They didn't have to take your word for it because you have evidence - OPs DD has none.
Regardless, they don't have to offer any flexibility - they will only do so if they think she's worth it. She may or may not be.

It is very rare for multilingual people to have the same level of proficiency in all of their languages! If this job is in the UK, English should be expected to be their strongest and most nuanced language. The two others should be "professionally proficient", which doesn't mean fully nuanced. The nuances will also develop with the growth in the position.

Can she say to them “I am French and went to school in France, when I think, I think in French and French is my first language, would you be able to provide me with a test to enable me to evidence this? I am happy to have a conversation or interview in French with any member of the organisation”

To me it’s discrimination as they are not asking English staff to prove they can speak English. It’s not a level playing field.

But they are. They just don't make a song and dance about it. So as a rule, when the HR / onboarding team are filling out the forms for an English person in a finance role, they will look at the person's education and apply that to the field asking about proof of language. They may not even bother asking the person. In my case, with a university degree in English but from another country, I recall someone checking this point and confirming that my university was on their list of acceptable "proof" for English speaking.

Similarly, international colleagues who studied at universities like Oxford, Cambridge or LSE did not need to produce tests to prove they spoke English - those qualifications were sufficient to meet the form requirements.

It's not discrimination in the slightest. Don't be silly.

It may be that the requirement for this proof comes from the other countries involved and is not at the discretion of anyone in the UK.

The workplace should either offer her an interview in French to check her language skills or give her a time limit in which to pass one of the exams they are suggesting.

I don't think they are being unreasonable to ask for proof. Just because someone has a French passport doesn't necessarily mean they are fluent in French and it's also possible that they are fluent in spoken French but don't have the skills necessary in written French.

English speaking staff who have completed A-levels and university in English have those qualifications as proof that they can communicate and work in English. Your daughter doesn't have proof that she can do that because she has A-levels taken in England and went to university to study Business Management (presumably in English) and Spanish. There is no proof of her ability in French and having a French passport or saying you went to school in France doesn't mean you are able to work at the level required for the international company.

She needs to find out when she can take proficiency exams and then contact the company and say the first date she can take the exam is X and then see what they say.

That doesn't make any sense. If they didn't want her, they wouldn't have offered her the job. They have offered her the job and she has met their original requirements, which is being able to prove her level of French OR Spanish (not French AND Spanish).

It would be stupid for the OP's daughter to decline the job offer because she can't prove something she was never asked to prove and never thought she'd be asked to prove. And it would be stupid of them to withdraw the job offer from a candidate who more than meets the requirements they are asking for due to a stupid "computer says no" type situation.

It's already been explained in the thread multiple times.
They have got confirmation of her English fluency.

Stop trying to be a victim. You're not, except of your own ignorance.

Either this, or else have someone from HR call her (I thought most recruitment was online/Zoom these days anyway?) and have another person from the French-speaking team on the call. It will take literally 30 seconds for that person to confirm that your DD is a native speaker.

What the company seems to be requiring, on the other hand, seems awfully bureaucratic. Maybe this is an indication of what they are like to work for too.

Of course it's not discrimination.

It's a graduate position so by default anyone with a degree from an English speaking university has already proven their fluency. If OP's daughter had studied in France and done her degree in French then they'd be asking her to prove her fluency in English too.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Of course it makes sense. Perhaps the French is what gave her the edge, if she can't prove it, she doesn't have the edge.
She doesn't have to decline the job offer, nor do they have to hire her if she cannot fulfil their requirements.

formal french is very different to conversational french

She has fulfilled their requirements. If they want to add new ones in at this stage, they shouldn't make them impossible ones.

This is a simple issue to fix that your dd should be able to sort out easily for herself.

It’s very common to have to provide official proof of competence for multi-lingual job positions.

Just go to any approved language school or job centre for professionals close to where you live which runs tests determining CEFR language levels and take one. And send a copy of the resultant certificate to the prospective employer. There will be a small fee.

It’s a bit arrogant to think that that every employer should automatically understand the personal blend of language skills of each individual applicant, when they may have 300 applicants or more for one post. They can’t take things on trust. They just need to see a bit of paper that proves competence so that they can eliminate everyone in the first round who doesn’t fit the criteria.

Then at the face to face interview stage, the interviewer usually switches between all of the languages required.

Good luck to your dd.

Edited to say: sorry, read your op too quickly. I see your dd already has the job, in which case the same advice applies. Just go to any nearby testing centre.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom but they aren't impossible. She needs a certificate, which she can get by taking a test. Why is this so hard to get your head around?

I don’t know if this has been mentioned but it is the same going the other way.

I live in Spain and teach English, we have a student whose parents are Scottish and is applying to Edinburgh uni and she has to take the Cambridge exam to prove she can speak english to the level required.

Companies having to tick boxes is really frustrating. I’ve worked as a copywriter for 10 years but been declined for jobs because I don’t have an English degree certificate.

I’m surprised they didn’t conduct the interview in French or English and French. Surely that would be more proof of fluency than any test