New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

Im a native Engish speaker.

I think if I took a test in English fluency i wouldn't get amazing marks, because of the grammar rules. I remember seeing English tests that people have to take, and the questions are like

"Should the comma go here or there".

I remember when I came out of primary school, my English grammar and punctuation was perfect. Because I had a really good teacher. However as I've gotten older, my grammar has gotten a lot worse.

I think it's after I went on certain antidepressants in my twenties, they seemed to affect my memory.

And my grammar was one of the things that got a lot worse.

Have you seen the pass marks or grading schemes? C2 level is native or near-native proficency. It doesn't mean perfection. I'm a (certified) C2 in my second language, and I still have to stop and think about some of the more complicated points of grammar.

I you live and work in the UK you're unlikely to be challenged for most roles.

But if you were applying for a job outside the UK that required a high degree of professional fluency you might reasonably be asked to prove it.

In the grand scheme of things, a pass at GCSE English at the old grade C or the new grade 4 is evidence of basic functional literacy. It's insufficient for most professional roles.

I'm in Spain right now. I was talking to people here who work as English as a second language teacher.

One said that she was born in Prague, but she moved to the USA as a child and grew up there.

She said that despite her being fluent in English, because she was born in a country that didn't speak English, she has to do an English proficiency test for the school.

You have to do them. People that hire you have tickboxes that have to be completed before you start. Their managers will check. Many jobs will get you to do a language test

Just a little update.
After some calling around, exams are booked.
She’s spoke to the hiring manager who is going to arrange a phone interview in each language and send her a written test to complete in the meantime as she may not get results until after the start date.
Just glad it’s sorted!

@Scoras That sounds like a reasonable compromise. External and internal evaluation.

Sounds like they're really keen to get her in. Good stuff.

Ask what proof they need. Can she have a conversation with a colleague? Translate a written report? Fill in an online assessment?

She just has to pass now!

They do it because they don't want people lying about it.

Employers do tend to insist upon seeing GCSE English certificates these days, so yeah, kind of.

I could never understand why jobs in the UK want your G.C.S. E certificates, something that you do as a teenager.

I've worked in the UK and I've worked in the Republic of Ireland. In R of Ireland, jobs would only ever ask you about your university transcripts , they would never ask to see school certificates.

This is HR all over

Box ticking

Her managers will be horrified 😂

Fucking loads of people have died and suffered serious harm as a result of language / translation errors. In one case in the US, a teenager was left quadriplegic when the hospital treating him used an unqualified language broker (a "bilingual" medical staff member whose Spanish was clearly sub-par) who mistranslated his condition. The hospital was found liable and had to pay him $73 million.

No need to swear but ok in a healthcare setting maybe.

In my setting no. Nobody is going to die because someone used the wrong word.

And even with a test there's no guarantee mistakes won't be made. Lets face it, loads of native English speakers can't use the proper words for things. So a native French speaker could make mistakes too, test or no test, certificate or no certificate.

I agree.

I suspect some employers ask for GCSE English (or Maths) when the candidate has done A level English (or Maths) too!

I wonder how many people with English or Maths degrees have been asked to provide the GCSEs as well.

Much more sensible approach. Funnily enough more or less what some of us suggested and were told we were "clueless" for suggesting. Who'd have thunk it.

Some of us have been working for decades! And in international companies.

Just because practices vary from company to company does not mean people are "clueless".

Well, she’s still having to do the exam. That is obviously non-negotiable. I don’t think anyone disagreed with looking for ways to start before she was able to take it/get the results.

I've looked at higher level IELTS papers, and probably quite a few native speakers would be challenged. Certainly one I worked with.

I have been asked to provide certificates for English and Maths GCSEs in recent years (I was in my late 40s.) I did question it, as I have two degrees, neither of which I could have started without English or maths GCSEs, and they agreed, but they didn't set the rules.

I've found that most UK jobs will take a UK awarded degree as evidence of GCSE equivalent English and Maths - except teaching! A good friend has an Oxbridge PhD in English and was still asked to provide GCSE certificates for an English teaching position!

Not just healthcare settings. Improper language use has caused fatal accidents in everything from air traffic control to bungee jumps.

A lot of native English people can't speak English well either!

I was watching some videos on tiktok and I couldn't understand what they were saying because of the incorrect versions of words they were saying.

Not a single person has suggested that she shouldn't be given time to sit the test. So completely in line with what's actually happened.
The clueless people are the ones shocked at the need for standardised testing to prove their 'mother tongue'.
It's not racist, discriminatory or whatever other words that have been carelessly thrown around ( by the way, undermining actual instances of prejudice).

By the way, 'mother tongue' refers to spoken proficiency according to the Oxford English dictionary. Kinda obvious really the clue's in the name.

A language test covers all required aspects. A British person who had never been educated in English will have to prove it too. It's that simple.

No, but i don't need to speak several languages for my job. They probably just want official proof of all of them.
I don't think it's any more weird than a lot of bureaucracy

HMP interviews have required certificates at interview since the early 90s (I had an interview around 1994 where it was made clear that no certificates = immediate termination of interview). Teachers have to provide them, I wouldn't be surprised if all Civil Service and Local Government candidates do now - and I suspect I'd fail NHS checks these days if I couldn't provide them, as they are absolutely dogmatic to the extent that they withdrew a job offer ten years ago because I had worked for a sole trader and not a large organisation - because he was the owner and not my line manager and his email was 'boss name. com', his reference was unacceptable to them.

As it is, I deal with checking companies every week who have been provided with certificates still 'needing' to get confirmation that the certificate results match records - all the way back to the 1960s (and for schools that have been closed since then in some cases) - including for such lofty roles as serving coffee or warehouse packing.

Civil Service don't care. I've never had to provide certificates or even be asked about general qualifications, other than filling them out on the online form . (Specialised ones are necessary for certain roles.)
Of course if you were found to have lied it would be a serious matter.