New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

I don't think any teacher would put their name to such a letter anyway. It sounds a bit childish. And as I said above, 'fluent' is a vague word with no objective meaning.

Though my work, I am familiar with English language exams run for the Home Office. Even South Africans whose first language is English, or Indians who have completed all their education through English, have to do a B1 proficiency exam for citizenship or Indefinite Leave to Remain. This is true even if they've lived in Britain for many years and work in a job where a high level of English is clearly required. It's not at all unreasonable for an organisation to demand official evidence of the language abilities of potential employees.

I've had to look at getting my English formally assessed in that type of situation. And if the job requires a high degree of fluency, you can't just have a conversation. Your language skills need to be tested in a standardised way.

For those saying A level is fluent it really, really isn't. On the CEFR ratings which are taken as the standard in Europe this is where our exams stand in fluency terms:

A1 - Beginner
A2 - Elementary (GCSE 7-9)
B1- Lower Intermediate (AS Level A*-C)
B2 - Upper Intermediate (A level A*-C)
C1 - Advanced
C2 - Near native fluency

Edited for typo

They definitely are not!

If they want proof /test then that is what she needs to do. Is not a big deal? Confirm which test they want herto take and will they pay for it?
Bilingual at home might mean being able to converse day to day but they want to check she is up to business conversations. Just go along with it. Should be easy for her to pass! English native speakers need to pass English exams .

Yes, I know quite a few South Africans who have had to do this as part of the visa process. One was outraged because he only got 95%! I pointed out he's an accountant, not an English Professor

I lived in a non English speaking country and my company sponsored lessons in that language for two years ( sometimes more ). The language school sent me a test to complete to determine what level class I would begin with.

She needs to contact providers of those qualifications and find out how quickly she can get herself assessed, then go back to her employer and tell them what the timescales are, reiterating that she's very keen on the job but it just never occurred to her that she would need to have a qualification in her first language.

Has she shown them that she has French citizenship?

If you contact the last school she went to before you left France they could probably also issue a certificat de scolarité.

This. Nobody has ever asked me to prove that I speak English, despite the fact that it is an essential requirement of my job, because the fact that I AM English is considered sufficient.

The chat would establish that the person is indeed fully fluent in the spoken language, and is engaged in finding a solution (perhaps offering all sorts of other proofs of schooling in the language etc). That will create a presumption of suitability and, one hopes, a response that a formal tick-box test must be completed by a specified date. Or perhaps the offer on an in-house assessment with another native speaker

So she should romp to a C2+++ grade, as she is native fluent!!

Yeah no. There are a lot of people who have taken language a levels and don’t have the fluency needed for business. I’ve seen it a number of times. Also, a levels are taught to pass exams and accents are also important. And international companies wouldn’t know about UK schooling levels etc. I think another measurement would be better.

But growing up in NewZealand, Canada, US, Australia, or South Africa is not considered sufficient.

Isn't it?

My colleague is Australian and she was not asked to prove she speaks English either.

In England, with an education in English, that would be proof, yes. Similarly, my education was in English and I have an English passport, and that is proof in my case. However, if I wanted to work for a French bank in France, I would need to prove that I can speak English as a requirement. Again, in my case, most likely, the fact that I have a university degree which was completed in English would count as the proof. OP's DD, ironically, in a very regulated industry, as she has no formal French education, may well have to prove she speaks French even to work for a French organisation, in France. But I imagine that would depend on the firm's policies - a French passport and an interview in French may be considered sufficient in France.

I have also met the odd person who does not have a university degree but works in banking who has had to subsequently prove slightly odd things. I can't remember the details but I had a PA once who had this - I don't think it was to do with language but something similar and it required her to take a test so that she could check our compliance box, even though she was English, working in London etc.

It’s very common for someone’s spoken language to be far better than their writing. IF the role requires a high level of written French it does need the appropriate testing.

As others have said, in some roles, it’s a formal assurance or nothing. Negotiating the qualification as a probationary requirement is probably possible but doing that in French won’t add anything to the formalities.

Right. My niece and nephew went to international school and mom is English speaking natively. Dad isn’t and they live there now. Guess what, the kids aren’t able to have complex business like conversations in English but can have English conversations easily and would be considered ‘fluent’ by first glance because teenagers don’t no matter how ‘fluent’ they are aren’t having those complex conversations. Not sure if this is ignorance or arrogance.

Well, I am bilingual Spanish/English, went through the whole interviewing process in English, including two forty minute interviews. My uni degree is English Language and Literature and they still asked me whether I could sit an English level test. Wtf? Can´t you tell? And no, it wasn´t for a job that required business English, just cabin crew for BA.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom it depends a) on the sector (banking for example is highly regulated so will have stricter processes and b) it can depend son the policy. eg South Africans and Australians with universiry degrees at an English speaking university, probably fine. But those with a degree in a different language - not so much. My first post on this thread was about that - a South African man who grew up speaking English but got his degree at an Afrikaans university. He therefore had to take an English test to prove he could work at a bank in the UK.

And as a PP said, lots of South Africans have to take English tests to get visas or when they apply for British citizenship.

I do actually work in France though. So I'm kind of like the OP's daughter in reverse.

I wasn't asked for any proof of my language abilities at all. I did the interview in French to demonstrate my ability to speak French, and they took the fact that I am from and grew up in England as evidence that I can speak English.

It's very odd to ask someone who is French and speaks English with a French accent to prove that they speak French.

This just isn’t true and I would suggest that unless you work in a country that speaks more than one language and is multinational you won’t have experienced this. Also, many times it’s the written language as well which is so important as it is in writing. have seen many times people who claim to be fluent (have a parent or grew up partly in another country) and don’t have the language skills for complex business conversations let alone the proper grammar and ability to stand by legal written documents.

Is the proof your citizenship, or your English exam certificates/degree?

@MissScarletInTheBallroom what industry do you work in? I imagine that most industries it would be fine i fyou can interview effectively. Some, like financial services, are more regulated and therefore there are more formal, objective processes that have to be followed. This is particularly true in the UK where the FCA has very stringent requirements. Even more so if the organisation is multi-national and covered by multiple regulatory regimes.

I get that. And it's is true of someone who has learned the language. But she is a native speaker from infancy, educated for some years in the country. She is fully bilingual.

As I said, she may need to get a certificate of some sort. But as test dates may be an issue, then ensuring that the employer realises that in her specific case, this is a box-ticking formality might help her either by allowing her to start before a test (with deadline by which it must be completed) or by coming up with a different form of evidence that they would find acceptable.

Don't want to be too specific but not unlike the financial sector.