New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

It's not impossible for her to take a qualification in French. It is impossible for her to do so today and get the results immediately. It is probably also impossible for her to do so within the timescale necessary for confirming (or not) this job offer. So if they want her, they need to be flexible. And if they don't, they're time wasting dickheads and she's had a lucky escape.

The more of this thread I read, the more @DogInATent 's point about English Exceptionalism and lack of knowledge about international business becomes clear.

This is a check box exercise. The employer knows it, the DD should know it. Some objective, verifiable proof is required. She would not have been offered the job if the person hiring her was not confident she has sufficient language skills. Not the big compliance machine needs to reach the same level of confidence.

It's not complicated, nor strange, nor is it in the slightest bit discriminatory.

Ask them to tell you what they need her to complete to get the job (that’s within an appropriate time frame) surely

How is this relevant to the facts? The OP's DD has met the requirements they asked her to meet. She's now being asked to meet new requirements without any prior warning.

many test centres have 2 or 3 tests a year (commonly feb and june) so she should check if she can apply for the test early next year.

I don't recall any suggestion it has to be done today. Arguably, when applying for roles of this sort she should have thought about this in advance, but as a grduate applying for her first job perhaps she can be excused not having that info. However, I'd be very very surprised if the orgnaisation is not used to this sort of thing and the employment would be fine as long as she met a specific deadline. Again, another example for me is that I had to produce a hard copy of my degree certificate when I went to work for an investment bank. At the time, the job offer was made, I was due to start a month later. I needed to track down my certificate in my parents' house in another country, then get it couriered to me. This was surprisingly difficult (mostly due to my mother's slackness with this sort of task). I was given a deadline by which it had to be done which was a couple of weeks after I started at the job. A colleague who started on the same day had a similar sort of situation with some paperwork she needed from her home country as she required replacement certificates for her education I believe.

This gave us. both time to get it sorted.

The role starts in january, even if she can't book and take a test in that time period, she can have it scheduled and that can be written into her contract.

Google the CLOE test which is a test used in France (I live here and was a TEFL teacher and this is one of the approved tests to test competence) - it can be taken remotely for the written and spoken element and the oral test is with a live examiner via a video link. The results are very fast and I imagine she will get a C2 level which will show she has the highest level possible!

I hope that helps

Good grief.

You're entitled to your opinion that a new graduate should have anticipated that she might be asked to prove her fluency in her own native language and taken a test just in case. Whatever.

As for the rest of it, you're saying the same thing I'm saying. Which is that if they are going to insist on her taking a test in French (something they did not previously ask for) they need to give her time to get it sorted.

Glad we agree.

I work in a highly regulated industry. The amount of nonsense I have to do for compliance is enormous. Tick box questionnaires on nothing, regular reporting on irrelevant areas of my life. It’s annoying but if I don’t do it I lose my job. If the firm has a requirement that they need independent assurance of these language skills, then that’s it and there’s nothing to be done but meet it. I’m sure there will be some wriggle room around dates - although depending on the context it may be a late start date, or possibly probation that rests on the pass.

She has not met the requirements formally. They know she can speak the language. Now the formal requirements kick in. Just like a doctor probably doesn't have to produce proof of a medical degree to get the interview, or to be offered the job, but one assumes they will need to provide this as verifiable proof before actually starting the job.

There will be a bunch of other checks goign on as well. And if she works here for a few years and then goes to get another job in another financial institution, she will be offered the job based on her skills, experience and interview BUT as part of the onboarding process, someone will seek verifiable proof that she worked at this organisation for the exact number of years she said she did, doing the exact role she said she did. She may also be asked to provide her French certificate again, even if her role in this organisation is titled, "French Speaking Liaison to French People Every Day, in French, All Day".

Have you read the OP's updates?

She HAS met the requirements FORMALLY.

The requirement was to prove that she could speak French OR Spanish fluently, with a relevant qualification.

She has a qualification to prove that she speaks Spanish fluently.

Despite being a native speaker, when I applied to a post-graduate university course here, I had to prove my fluency in English, due to being an international student. I produced my undergraduate transcripts from an English-speaking university in the US.

Read the OP again.

The job has basic requirements

• Bilingual English, and French or Spanish

The job has extended requirements that would make a candidate stand out over someone that only meets the basic requirements:

• Trilingual English and French and Spanish

The OP's daughter has claimed the extended requirements of being fluent in three languages, they've offered the job and now they've asked for proof.

Nothing unusual, exceptional, or discriminatory here. The OP's daughter has no proof of her French fluency, so she'll need to get that to meet the claim she made in order to be offered the job.

The only surprise is that she has been given the job before providing the proof.

You have been outraged she's even been asked this or that her being able to speak french in an interview is not sufficient. I don't think it's outrageous at all.

To be frank, at many universities, part of the guidance for job applications would include offering advice on what additional things you can do to prove your skills. I don't blame her for not picking up on this one, but it's not weird that it might be expected. Certainly, I briefly did a bit of work helping graduates write their CVs a few years ago, working with a lot of international students, and this was something we always said to them - if they speak other languages, they should provide certification of such and the details of that certification in their resumes (or that certification can be provided on request). In most cases, they could provide this via high school or university degrees but occasionally they had a third or fourth language that might require more proof. Again, this was in particular for people applying for jobs in finance. Basically, the advice was that anything you put on your CV needs to be able to be proven, in writing, by an objective third party. So every job you reference, every course you've taken, every volunteering position you've done etc.

But the formal requirement is now for both. The OP herself says that the ability to cover both languages may be the reason she got the role. If the company’s rule is that to operate in a language they need proof of your competence, and they want her specifically because she can offer both, then the formal requirement for both needs to be met.

It must feel very unfair, but the company has the upper hand here. And possibly/probably no regulatory wriggle room.

Which language do you and your husband use to speak to each other? Sorry I know it's nothing to do with OP, I'm just nosy!

What @DogInATent just said.

Also, if the role she has accepted now requires her to speak all three languages, she needs to be able to prove it. Most likely, she'll be put on a European desk and instead of only being allocated to English and Spanish speaking clients, she'll now also be able to be allocated to French speaking clients. This is an advantage for the organisation as it allows them to flex their employee resources, slotting this new grad in to wherever they need her. BUT, from a compliance point of view, she most likely cannot engage with clients in French without that box ticking exercise being completed. It is what it is. [gallic shrug]

She's met the original requirements they asked for (because she has a qualification in Spanish) and she hasn't lied (because she is fluent in all three languages).

It's not remotely odd that a new graduate wouldn't think to take a qualification in her own first language to prove that she speaks it, when the job she was applying for didn't require her to have one.

They would be mad not to work flexibly with her to find a solution here.

Flexibility is giving her time to get the relevant certificate.

Flexibility is not humouring the usual Mumsnet arrogant indignation and self-righteous AIBU.

But no one has suggested the employer won't work with her to solve for this. The employer told her she needs a specific certificate. So now it's up to the OP's DD to book that in. I'd be very surprised if they refuse to allow her to take up the job if she can't get a booking in time although I expect they would expect her to put significant effort into getting a booking for this test as soon as possible.

OP, has she provided them with her French passport?

Yes, that's why I've been saying they should give her time to get the relevant certificate if they want her to have one so badly. 🙄

Doesn't prove language competence, does it?

Just to really set the cat among the pigeons, let me tell you another tricky one that comes up with financial services and banking often - gap years, time out to travel or even just periods of unemployment! This one can be a nightmare. I had 3 months of travel and temping once.... we managed to get around it but it was a bloody nightmare! I think the problem was that they couldn't prove I hadn't been selling sex slaves in Thailand vs sitting in a dingy flat applying for jobs in between temp jobs and the odd jaunt for a cheap city break! I can't remember how it was dealt with in the end, but I do remember being very very grateful that the unemployed bit was over five years prior when I applied for my next banking job so I knew it would be less of an issue. Just.

No, but it’s a start. My US passport doesn’t ensure my English fluency, but once you see my passport and speak with me for five seconds, it’s pretty obvious that I’m fluent in English.