New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

I think it's reasonable considering she had done her A levels, gcse here. She says she grew up in France but company does not know that for sure. She needs to provide a school certificate where she studied in France or she does a fluency test.

kindly yabu
usually a certificate of proficiency is required. often to b2 or c1 standard.
if your dd is fluent then that shouldn't be a problem. look up the language institue (institute francais for example) for exam dates.

It's perfectly normal. A level, or even a degree in a language, is not the same as fluency. Nowhere near. There is working level, extensive and then fluency.

I just did a sift for a job where we required someone to speak Arabic (fluently). Shortlisted only to people who, on paper, had the desired skilled. In interview? 3 out of 5 were not up to par. These are professionals who have based their entire career in the Middle East - who have done exams in their language - and who, on paper and in practice, speak Arabic. And in many situations their Arabic would have been up to par. But their Arabic was at extensive (c1), not fluency (c2). Language skills degrade over time - a lot more than people expect, even when they use them often - so even if someone was fluent a few years ago, it doesn't mean they are now.

People lie - or overestimate their skills - and good on her company for wanting to be sure before they actually hire her.

But for English candidates, they went through entire interview process in English so they don't need to prove anything. Op's dd can request for an interview in French if that is possible.

No, they have evidence of English proficiency because that's the language she was taught in at undergraduate level.

Being interviewed in a language is not proof of fluency.

A-levels are nowhere near fluency. At best A-levels are CEFR A2 / B1. They claim it’s up to B2 but I’d call BS as all the A-level speakers, of certain languages, I’ve met, can’t hold a conversation.

OP, it's normal to test. I have family who are in the same position as your daughter. They just take whatever proficiency test the company/organisation mandates, similarly to SeaBaseAlpha or DogInATent (CEFR).

ask what they would want as proof if they won’t accept the a levels? If it’s an online test or something she could complete that asap. Maybe they’d even accept a video or phone interview with an existing employee who speaks the language they want proof of?

She should yst say of course and ask them what they need and offer to sit and converse with a native speaker in the company.
Or ask what test would they like her to take.
It is not unreasonable for them to want to check

Not as crazy as some are saying.

DH is French national. Admittedly in English he's northern, but he still has had to prove his French skills in his last two positions as part of hiring.

Also it's one thing to say you can speak French, it's another to speak professional business French. I don't think it's out of order at all, and in fact it's fairly normal.

It's very likely that HR just haven't thought this through, sometimes they're a bit dumb. I was once asked for a working visa when I have a EU passport and didn't need one (before Brexit).

Take it up with the contact who hired them. She's surely not the first graduate with French or Spanish (or English!) as a first language and no further proof. If it's that important, they should have a language test in the recruitment process.

My husband is often asked to assess language skills in his native language at interview. It's not uncommon that he finds that people of that nationality are not fluent to the degree required. They may have been born and spent some time in the country growing up, or grown up with a parent speaking that language but unless they've studied post 16 or worked in the language they don't have the fluency needed. A passport does not provide any evidence of language fluency.

I guess it's possible that they may need to be able to say that all their multi-language employees are qualified to C1 level, but it really ought to be possible for them to interview to ascertain that she should pass as soon as she has an opportunity to take a test, and put that in her probation requirements.
I wonder whether the HR people have anything to prove they are at C1 level in English?

I get this, but I'm also not sure how many English graduates could speak "business english" either, unless their choice of degree meant they had picked it up? Lots of people study degrees largely unrelated to the field of work they end up in so the right lingo might not be in their vocabulary even if they're native speakers.

It sounds like she's in finance based on your response to my earlier question. So this is a regulatory thing. I guarantee no one at her new office is in the slightest bit concerned that she can't speak french. That's not the point. The point is that they have to be able to document that she speaks that language fluently for the purposes of compliance, and as such, she needs to be able to produce proof that can be validated and put into a system. It's not sufficient for someone to say, "I just spent 4 hours speaking with her in French and she's fluent".

Lots of these slightly irritating little things crop up in highly regulated industries. So offering suggestions like she should speak in french, or email them in French, or get proof that she went to primary school in french is irrelevant. They will have specific standards. In the odd case, like with OP's DD, those standards are a bit silly. But itis what it is.

Lots of people study degrees largely unrelated to the field of work they end up in so the right lingo might not be in their vocabulary even if they're native speakers.

True, but it's generally much easier to pick up meanings and nuance in your native tongue than it is in a foreign language. It's also quite common for people with unrelated degrees to have to do conversion or access courses where they learn the lingo, as it were.

All she needs to do is ask them what they want her to provide and provide it.

This, surely. I would add, she should make sure to ask this on the phone, and conduct the entire conversation in French, from speaking to the receptionist to getting through to the relevant people. Fucking show them being fluent in French 😄

A personal recommendation letter in french from an appropriately senior french professional who is in a position to attest to her skills would be proof.

e.g. If she recieved her school education in french I would ask the school's headtraxher to provide a letter on school headed paper which says (in french)

[Name] participated fully in the school recieving all her education in the French language. She is a French speaker as much as any person born and raised in France and I confirm that in conversation she is completely fluent. In the same way that a child who recieved all their schooling in Hertfordshire can be assumed to speak English withoit having a certificate to prove it, [name]'s fluency in French is beyond doubt.

There are a dozen ways to get different kinds of certificates for french fluently which can be found with a quick googke. some of which I imagine could be accessed immediately for an appropriate fee.

YABU.

Your daughter hasn't done any higher level education through French or Italian. They are not being unreasonable to demand evidence of her proficiency. Having a parent who speaks the language and doing a school exam is not enough.

Also, what do you mean by 'fluency'? The word is very vague and doesn't really mean anything. Do you mean B2 or even C1 level? Can't she just sit an officially accepted exam?

I'm surprised so many people think this is an unusual or unreasonable request.
It won't be the last time she encounters this issue, so I would be doing the test anyway.
Whether or not they will make an exception will depend how badly they want her - up to her if she wants to put this to test I suppose

How exactly are they making it “hard” for her.

A letter, perhaps in each language explaining level of fluency, and offer to interview in the language.

Bring able to “problem solve” is impt - she can solve this problem, is she can’t, the other applicant who can solve will get the job.

No. This would not work. Not if it's in a highly regulated industry with specific standards. Financial services organisations have to prove all sorts of things in highly standardized ways. This produces data that can be validated and checked. OP's DD can speak French which means of course, there is no risk that she will not be able to communicate effectively with a client. HOWEVER, if the organisation is a bank, it needs to be able to objectively prove this. If, for example, there is a dispute between the organisation and the client in relation to a service for which DD was providing advice, even though to all intents and purposes language is clearly NOT the problem, the organisation would nonetheless need to be able to prove that with appropriate documentation.

I am quite surprised at all the people on this thread who can't get their head around this. It's tedious but normal. Just like lots of slightly irritating legal requirements we all have to fulfil all the time.

French being her 'first' language is meaningless. You said she hasn't been educated in French since she was 15. For all they know, she may be very fluent in speaking about everyday stuff in French, but may not have the ability to discuss professional matters in that language.

Why can't she simply do an approved French proficiency exam? People have to jump through hoops like this all the time if they want a job.

Tbh I would probably expect to be asked for proof of English capability if I was interviewing for a job in France that required English, yes.

The explanation why most of MN think this unreasonable is English exceptionalism, and very little knowledge or experience of how international businesses work.

It is perfectly normal in this situation to provide proof of language competence (CEFR) and equivalence of academic qualifications (NARIC). Unfortunately for the OP's daughter the OP doesn't understand this and the OP is seeking support of her position from MN, and most MN members will quite happily validate an opinion on a subject they know nothing about based on misplaced solidarity. I hope the daughter is independently getting some genuine advice from elsewhere.