New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

Plus if you have higher level qualifications such as a degree in your native language they can assume your, say English, is at a level to access the degree level reading, writing and listening.

When does a language count as native?
The narrative from the OP is that the daughter is bilingual, so which is the native language? It's not clear which language her degree was taught in, and a degree language would normally be taken as roughly B2. It sounds like they're defaulting to the graduate tuition (presumably English?) and subject (Spanish) as the native and graduate assessed languages. Leaving French swinging in the wind.

But yes, having a CEFR in your native language can be a thing - particularly if it's a language from childhood and you've been living out of the country for a significant period of time afterwards.

I think it depends if you mean fluent as in being able to understand TV and have conversations effortlessly (I was definitely fluent on that measure when I did my A level) or being able to operate in a business context - not so much.

But I also did a Masters in my foreign language, I still would have struggled with business language.

In fact I have a colleague who is a first language Welsh speaker and they sometimes get asked to comment on things for Welsh radio or TV and they say they struggle with some Welsh business language because they operate in English 90% of the time!

Exactly @Frowningprovidence - it's fairly obvious that someone with A-levels and a degree from an English speaking school will be suitably fluent in English!

One A-level in the language means nothing, really. I did German to A-level and French to degree level and I'm certainly not fluent in either!

I know someone who this happened to a few years ago! She is native French but also fluent in English. (I met her when she was on placement at my workplace). She applied for a different type of role after her placement and they were demanding a qualification in French from a UK establishment. Because 20 years of living and being educated in France wasn't enough! I think she ended up taking a course!

She just needs to speak to them and explain it's her first native language so hasnt done any extra qualifications other than her a levels

Happened to a friend a long time ago - a German who lived in France and was educated in England.
Her German was her native language, spoken at home but wasn't of a sufficient standard to impress the German multinational that was hiring.

I have no advice but wanted to wish you and DD the best of luck with sorting all this out - it looks like it is doable, just a lot of admin faff involved.

Surely she can just say it is her first language and request to be interviewed in french. She needs to push for a conversation with someone if possible to explain

Got to love all the clueless "Just speak to them" / "Phone them up and speak in French" replies.

Never change Mumsnet, never change..

Agree that A Level French is nowhere near fluent. The UK curriculum in particular (at least 20 years ago when I did it) is woefully deficient in developing speaking skills. We had to prepare a presentation about 'something intrinsically French' and we were able to write it no problem, got it marked/corrected by a teacher and then memorised it. It was the teacher who told us to do this - we were never encouraged to use cue cards to prompt natural speaking and on-the-fly sentence creation, because she knew we'd all fail!

Then I just memorised 'can you speak more slowly please' and 'can you repeat the question please' to get me through the Q&A at the end... it's a farce.

Anyway I'm surprised that a company that has such crucial requirements for multiple languages didn't have someone on the panel that they could switch languages during the interview. Fluency has nothing to do with what exams you've taken. In recent years learning a language has become much more accessible - back when I was learning for example you couldn't watch TV in the language you were learning and DVDs had limited options, not French or Spanish, but Polish or Norwegian! Now we have Netflix with dozens of language options. Forums to practice, apps, websites which match you to video call and practice with each other... with hard work fluency can be achieved without ever taking an exam or leaving the country, which was impossible before.

They really need to get with the times IMO. I would say that the majority of applicants who are fluent would either be native speakers like your DD or had spent a significant portion of time living in the country and learning 'on the job' without exams.

I know. In my company you’d get nowhere at all without the bits of paper. Them’s the rules.

Also they really do need to know that someone’s written language is up to scratch if that is a criteria. That’s not going to be apparent through a chat.

If you are bilingual, both languages are your native language.

I'd phone them and have her converse with them entirely in french, and via email, and refuse to have any conversations in any other language. Malicious compliance.

I've come across this a few times. They can accept only certain level certificates as proof of language skills. It might feel crazy but I guess this is fair.

Surely A level French would suffice. Can she show her exam results? More rules than common sense again.

This isn't that unusual. I have certificates in both my native languages as it shows to employers that I do indeed have fluency, I am not just saying that. There are so many people who pretend to speak languages better than they do, and they cause so many problems after employment that I understand why they ask for these. If your daughter is going planning a career using her languages, she will likely meet this again, so getting the certificate now is also an investment for the future.

But an accent is proof of nothing Anyone can put on an accent.

You wouldn't believe how many people exaggerate their language ability to employers, often due to a belief that they're more fluent than they are.

I'm sure your DD's native French is excellent, especially if she managed an internship in Nice, but the employer has no way of knowing that. It is far easier to get the candidate to prove it than to go to the hassle of getting senior people to interview her in depth again in another language. Interviewing is costly and a pain to arrange.

I get you are annoyed on her behalf.... she should:
Present them with all of the information she has
Explore the options for providing evidence of fluency, including seeing if there is a professional (maybe a university professor) who could write an attestation of proficiency.
Check out these certification options ..
www.april-international.com/en/long-term-international-health-insurance/guide/8-tests-and-diplomas-prove-your-french-language-skills

Absolutely not. I know plenty of people with A level French none of whom are fluent.

And living in France until 15 doesn't make you fluent to a business level of proficiency.

Native language has very little meaning unless backed up by a relevant qualification. For international business in Europe use this would be an undergraduate degree taught in that language, or evidence of CEFR B2 or higher.

A lot of places are more flexible than that because they are looking for specific skills plus a couple of languages and you don’t find that every day. It’s not worth losing a good candidate over. I speak five languages fluently and they genuinely do just call me and chat in them to see if they can trust the rest of the information on my CV. If writing is a concern they can set a brief writing task at the interview. I have a C2 certificate in one of those languages and it’s listed on my CV but nobody’s ever asked to see it.
Usually the rigidity comes up when nobody in HR speaks any other languages and can’t think of other ways to evaluate them.

They sound bonkers.

Surely speaking to them in the language is all the proof you need to give that you can speak the language.?

She should explain in French that she doesn't have evidence and ask what evidence that she can speak the language she's speaking right now would they like.

What passport does she have?

Seems she meets the job criteria on the basis of being fluent in Spanish, the French seems to be muddying the waters. My advice would be get certified in all languages and then increase her salary requirement accordingly.