New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

In a previous job, I had a similar requirement. I prepared a 'series' of letters, one following on from the other, as if they were two people answering each other. I did each in a different language, and included professional language, colloquial terms, etc.

The company were impressed with them and it was a successful approach.
Would this work for your daughter?

No, it's not.
Your professional fluency (written, spoken, reading, comprehension) cannot be determined from a 5 second conversation, or a conversation of any length in isolation.

Please, if you don't know what professional fluency is then you're not helping the OP.

The OP was literally assuming that her DD would have to turn down the job offer because of this, and plenty of people seem to think it was her DD's fault for not anticipating this.

Obviously she needs to call them and explain that she doesn't have a qualification in French because she's never needed to have one, and that she's happy to take one but it probably can't be sorted overnight.

The irony is that if they ask her to take one during her probation period, by the time she actually sits the test they probably won't care anymore because they'll have seen for themselves that she can speak French. But maybe it'll come in useful for other jobs in the future.

Or they will still care because the proof is a regulatory requirement of employment.

The irony is that if they ask her to take one during her probation period, by the time she actually sits the test they probably won't care anymore because they'll have seen for themselves that she can speak French.

You really just don't get it! I guarantee that the person hiring her does not require proof. He/she knows perfefctly well that OP's DD can speak french. But the big compliance black box WILL require that proof.

Theres an eu wide system of assessment of proficiency in european languages as far as i know. Whether she loses this job or not, she should do that in all her languages.Generally official language organisations like alliance francaise, goethe institute run them for anyone who wants assessment.

I think you’ve already decided your way forward so this is a little late. I’ve also got caught up in the “need to tick a box” elements of recruitment, so agree she needs to find a way to do so. I’d suggest she calls and asks for a getting to know you session to be conducted in French (will also help her determine if she want the job), together with an offer to get the certificate during probation. Good luck!

She has fulfilled their requirements. If they want to add new ones in at this stage, they shouldn't make them impossible ones.

They're not impossible - she just needs to take a language test. Very normal.

As you said yourself, she has no proof of her language fluency. You call it first language but since she graduated in the UK, her first language as far as they are concerned is english, not french.
It's a fair request, the same as for a working or studying visa application, or uni application.
They would probab accept that she get her UK degree certified, but it's a lot simpler to just get a C1/2 certification they are asking for.

She can book an exam in the next few days, it cost £150-200, if she is near London she could book it for tomorrow. There is no need to prepare if she really is fluent.

If it's not the language in which I sat my public exams, then yes. I also work in a role where bilingualism is needed, and providing documentary evidence of competence in both languages is standard. Having sat public exams in the language is sufficient, having attended school in the country pre-16 and not having passed public exams there is not. Interviews in the languages in question look for things like industry-specific vocabulary, people with an unitelligible regional accent etc.; they are supplementary to the written proof which is the basic assessment of competence and stays on file.

I appreciate your DD would not necessarily have thought of this in her first professional job as an adult and there's no fault in not having pre-arranged a DALF exam, but it is in no way surprising that this is a requirement.

Apart from anything else, as a polyglot you will know that describing something as a 'first language' covers a wide range of fluency. By no means everyone is fluent to C2 level across all four skills in their mother tongue.

You have had plenty of good advice on here. I hope that your daughter is able to find a way to get the job she wants, whatever the route.

I’ve just looked at a few international banking jobs and the language requirements are pretty much C1 or C2 across the board, even when C2 is described as native. So evidencing that will be part of the appointment process as a mandatory requirement.

And for those telling OP to ask for the interview to be conducted in french, this is not enough. A C-level certification includes speaking, reading and writing task. They don't care that she speaks french, she needs to be able to work in french, which includes communicating in writing fluently. That's why the requirement is usually a degree taught entirely in french, or a formal certification (which again, takes about 2h of her time and can be done in a few days).

How annoying for her OP!! Procedures and policies at company’s can be so obtuse.

I have no advice but sympathy. I have a third language that I did in uni so use that as proof, and then for Irish I’ve only ever had to do a 15 min add on to an interview for local authority jobs. Can’t believe they don’t make a quick French interview part of their hiring process…

Sadly in my job I have interviewed many people who claim fluency in languages and actually this is not true. So I understand. I take a fluent language speaker with me to interviews to 'test'

Why is that clueless?

A few years ago I had to go for a language test to put me in the right level course and as soon as I opened my mouth the woman smiled and said "oh you clearly need the C2 course" and that was that.

It is very easy to have a conversation/interview in French if they want to test the OP's daughter's language skills.

And the reason a writing task can't be set as part of the interview is....

I didn't know it was so easy to get the tests done. When I've looked at courses, the tests go with the courses and so only happen a few times a year.

It does sound tick box when they could just give her a task to do in French, face to face, so nobody else can do it for her.

She can use her GCSE cert or school graduation certificate, provided it mentions she was taught in French.

Thats what I use for mine in terms of proving I speak Danish and German, and university graduation certificate to prove I speak English. This is Home Office standard evidence for people to show they speak English - if no evidence then they are required to take a test.

She should ask the company directly what standard of evidence they require.

And you then did the C2 to demonstrate your proficiency to a recognised standard?

Nope. How many post-Brexit Irish passport holders speak Irish

The same reason you can't give your kid A level papers and grade them at home. They aren't language examiners or teachers.

Language certification is a common requirement. It's not complicated to do, if OP' daughter wants to work in bilingual settings she will need them.

I wasn't doing it for work. Anyway my point was, the woman was easily able to discern that I had a high knowledge of the language.

As could someone interviewing the OP's DD in French, and asking her to do a business focused task.

Why would they? It's not a requirement for the post. They can tick that big old box for Spanish.

She can use her GCSE cert or school graduation certificate, provided it mentions she was taught in French.

She doesn't have this, that's the whole point. Her formal qualifications were in English (and Spanish) not French

But, in order to do the course you wanted to do, did you need a high level of the language or did you need to be certified at that level!? It sounds like the test was because they weren't sure what course you could manage with the language, then at the venue the woman quickly established you were fluent, and therefore happily signed you up for a course which, I assume, was conducted completely in that language?

The key thing that too many people don't seem to be able to udnerstand here is that there are two separate elements to this language requirement. The first is just whether or not she can speak the language at a level that is sufficient to do the job. This has been well established during the interview phase and everyone is happy with that. The second is that this level of proficiency needs to be objectively verified via a formal process. In the case of English and Spanish, that has been done becuase her degree is in those languages. IN the case of French, this is a requiremnt that remains outstanding but that can relatively easily ybe achieved.