New job wanting proof she can speak her first language

[Scoras]

DD is 22, she graduated uni this summer and has been offered a job with conditions. Until DD was 15 we lived in France, her dad is French-English and I’m Italian. DD went to an international school and was taught in French, English and had “additional language classes” in Italian. She is fully fluent in all 3. Did her French and Italian GCSEs here without studying them in school, same again for A-level.
DD then studied business management and Spanish. She’d never done Spanish before but the course allowed them to pick a language from beginning or continue with a Language already spoken. As she was fluent in all 3 languages she spoke she picked a new one.

Her new job is at an international company in a client facing role, one of the big requirements is being bilingual. The job advert was for French or Spanish speakers, she obviously mentioned she has both.

Now DD still speaks with a French accent, it’s not as strong as it once was but it’s definitely not missable, her phone is set to French, she thinks in French etc. She speaks to her dad and grandparents in French and to me and my family in Italian. By all means it’s her first language - but the workplace is requiring evidence of her fluency, such as an exam or something? They’ve also said it would be beneficial to prove her fluency in Italian but English and Spanish are fine because she studied at uni in those languages.

AIBU to think this is crazy? Obviously she’s probably going to have to let this job go as she doesn’t have any certificate to prove she can speak her first language past A-level, who does??

Nobody asked for your CV.

You'r still making me laugh. You said you don't think I know what I am talking about. I produced proof that I do know what I am talking about based on my direct experience in financial services with these exact issues. You really don't like proof do you?

What's 'good Italian'? Being able to chat about football? Being able to conduct a meeting in the language? Being able to get by as a tourist?

And this person isn't going to 'call an Italian client today' is she? She hasn't even got the job. If a condition of being hired is proving proficiency in the required languages, then it's not unreasonable for her to be expected to do so.

@Scoras , 12 pages in and you have two separate issues that people are missing.
Issue #1 - Job description said French OR Spanish.
Logically, this means Spanish should be enough to fulfil the requirements but your daughter's got French as a 'bonus'. So they're hiring her for something above and beyond.
In this case it would very unfair for them to withhold the offer on the basis of a language test. Giving her time to take it is fair enough.

Issue #2 - Written proof.
This is a non-negotiable in an environment where she'll be dealing with complex technical terms in a highly regulated environment. As PP said conversational French is very different from professional competency. But also if she really is competent she doesn't need any preparation, so what's the issue?

A hiring manager doesn't have the power to just 'devise a business test' off their own backs. This is a financial institution not a random small company. All interviews and hiring is strictly regulated but also everyone has to pass the same policies. As a PP said client could claim they have been mis-sold things etc. it's not 'just' a box fucking exercise as some people think.

LOL!

Your proof that you know what you're talking about is less compelling than the OP's DD's proof that she speaks French.

Anybody can say anything on the internet.

@JadziaD I also work for a FS company and most people don't get it. Nothing wrong with that. We can't all know everything but as a result, people think a lot of things are 'box ticking'.

If she was working for, say a tech company in a sales role I'd think they were being ridiculous, there isn't any regulation over mis-selling of products or as stringent standards.

I'm a software engineer, even when I hire people for technology roles, the bar is higher as I need them to communicate r.e. regulatory requirements and contributed to similar documentation. As a result proof is required. Many people even for a 'first' language don't have the written proficiency required to contribute at a certain level.

However when companies want to hire you they definitely have the resources to make it happen. In this case their HR would be able to sort a test or similar out , or even pay for one if they really want her.

Yeah that's normal. Jobs do check for language proficiency.

You honestly think I'm making up my experience, on a random MN thread, so that I can "prove" I know what I'm talking about?

You don't see the irony here at all do you?

I don't think you understand what irony means, but it's not that.

Anyway, I think we should stop derailing the OP's thread. She's got the advice she needs

You're right, they don't get it. We once suspended someone for suspected inappropriate communication about clients on public forums (albeit anonymously) using the bank's computers and from the office. The suspension was in place while the firm did an investigation. The media went into orbit claiming he'd been fired, he'd been "marched out of the building" etc. Needles to say, the banking/financial media just shrugged - they completely understood that for regulatory purposes he could not have access to any of the firm's information or equipment while this was being reviewed.

Sure, whatever you say.

They can already make it happen because she already meets the requirements based on her level of Spanish. They might want her to get a qualification in French so there's some documentary proof, but not having it shouldn't be a barrier to confirming her employment.

We covered Issue #1 back on page 10. They offered based on the daughter's claim of the above and beyond, and they're now asking for proof. But you're right that the fair route would be to allow a grace period for her to gain the certificate.

The OP hasn't suggested the offer is being withdrawn, she's just being maternally outraged that her adult daughter is being asked to prove professional fluency.

We don't know that though. As I outlined in my earlier post, the problem of 'proving your first language' (which is what initially pissed the OP off) is completely separate to the requirements for this job.

The hiring manager might have hired her over others on the basis of the bonus language, and so want proof before she starts. And thus imposed a check on both as a condition of employment.
Or some centralised HR might have sent out document stating the proof is required.

A sensible hiring manager would make this a condition of passing probation. Which I think is highly likely.

Cross-posted - as said in my latest post we don't know whether this is a 'standard' as issued by some central HR or something the hiring manager genuinely requires. Hence a bit of pushing for answers may be needed.

Also funnily enough a lot of 'polyglots' don't get the need for standardised testing. But it's not just about the language. Even born and bred British citizens can be asked to take an English language test if they don't have the required level of education.

It's not just the language the topics of conversation and level of formality used become more complex at higher levels.

I myself speak 4 languages, however I'm not professionally fluent in my native language at all because I've never used it in a formal context. I can speak, read, watch movies in it but I wouldn't be able to give a business presentation.

If the hiring manager has made a decision on a different basis to that on which the OP applied, they need to take responsibility for that.

That conversation would sound something like, "We know you've applied on the basis of your Spanish degree and we can see that on paper you meet the requirements we asked for, but what we're really interested in is the fact that you also speak French. Do you have any formal qualifications in French? If not, can you do one? We understand that this might not be possible within the next week."

Not acting confused as to why the OP's DD hasn't taken a qualification aimed at foreign language learners in what she says is her own native language.

She never claimed to have a French degree, or to have taken the DALF C2 exam. She said French is her native language, which it is. There's no test for that. If they want her to take a test aimed at non native speakers to check whether her native French is good enough for professional purposes, fine, but everyone needs to be clear about the fact that this is a new requirement they have introduced post job offer.

Any company hiring in people where they require fluency in MFLs could have their own tests. It makes we wonder how often they hire such a person if they have no way of assessing competence. Obviously a random person in HR cannot do it. Any more than they could read for engineering competence, for example. Their job is an ensure the applicants can be tested and so many people are bilingual these days. However they need to know if that’s good enough for their role.

A levels never would have been good enough for such a role.

We would test fluency through written and conversational exercises. Why doesn’t she offer to do that?

Makes you wonder how any of us would prove our fluency in our mother tongue.

Will a 40-plus year old O Level in Eng. Lang do ? Because it's all I fucking have.

Well, if required to, we could all take the relevant qualification in our native tongue.

Not acting confused as to why the OP's DD hasn't taken a qualification aimed at foreign language learners in what she says is her own native language.

No one said the company is confused that she hasn't taken a qualification. in fact, OP specifically said that the company has provided some guidance on what tests DD can take to prove her competency. So clearly the firm is fully aware that this kind of issue comes up.

And OP doesn't specifically say that they are saying she can't accept this job if it's not done in the next 5 minutes. Which loads of us with experience (notwithstanding your theory that we are lying about our experience when, of course, OP and her DD would never lie about her being completely fluent and a native French speaker) are saying is that most likely, the company would expect this test to be completed ASAP, ideally before she starts the job but, if it's scheduled now for after she starts, they'd most likely agree that it needs to be done by the time she finishes probation.

it's also entirely possible that as she doesn't have to complete the actual course, she could just take a test relatively soon, whenever the next one is scheduled in her area.

They definitely arent

Without a degree, you'd be unlikely to get a job within financial services, and certainly not a job that required proven competency in any language, so you don't have to worry about that.

DELF B1/2 are generally around A level/undergraduate level. C2 is proficient/native. C1 would generally be the minimum for fluency.

@SerendipityJane If you sat your O Levels in a British school (or in a large number of other countries which have English as the primary language of education) and it's not explicitly listed as a non-English-medium school (e.g. Welsh), then yes any O Levels would count, not just English O Level. The point is not that you have a qualification for English, but that your qualifications were taken in English. The same if you have any A Levels or a degree that you sat in the UK. This is not the case for the OP's daughter, who did not attend a French-medium school (possibly ever, but certainly not for her teen years).