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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sick of this, think it is utter bollocks and the next generation are actually bang on?

212 replies

Usunshine · 10/11/2024 23:09

I’m in a professional role. Historically this career (like many others) is stay late, keep working, do absolutely everything you can for your job. I had a conversation with my manager in a 1:1 review meeting where he said I was doing fine, couple of bits to work on but all good and happy with performance etc. A normal review meeting really.

He then proceeded to say next I want to really mount the pressure, I want you to be feeling you have too much work and have to say to me ‘(Eric), I can’t take this on, it’s too much.’ I want you to almost feel like there’s so much on that you are non stop. That will mean next year we can talk about more money. It will mean late nights of course. We want to keep building more and more.

I have worked hard in my life. I’m late 30s and I’ve actually done the whole putting your life on hold to pass professional exams, worked late and weekends. I’ve done all that. I watch younger versions of me clocking off at bang on 5:30 and be called snowflakes by older members of the team. But I think good for them. For fucks sake why am I being told I have to have so much pressure I can’t manage the workload?! Why is that necessary? In my opinion the younger generation has it right. It’s not lazy logging off at half 5 to play tennis or go for a drink. It’s sensible. There’s no prizes for working yourself to the bone. Interested in others thoughts on this as I had a completely different view a few years ago.

OP posts:
Borgonzola · 11/11/2024 10:56

I have a flexible job where I can log off on time. I always did but it works better now I have kids and they're very understand about it. I enjoy and it's fulfilling but it pays below the median average and I've been in it for 10 years. This is the payoff, for me.

Partner works silly hours (in my view) though not weekends. He pulls in the big bucks. This is what I assume many couples with kids do.

I don't love it but I do like having my own time and I pay my way.

ItsLovelyWeatherForDucks · 11/11/2024 10:56

Yes. Slightly 'older' people - 45 plus - do call the younger generation snowflakes for not wanting to work an enormous amount of hours, and wanting to drop to say, 4 days a week, and for having mental health issues - and finding work too much of a strain sometimes.

I was working in the late 1980s, 1990s, and very early noughties in a job where I was told to work work work train train train, get up the ladder as high as you can.

And I was royally mocked by my manager for having the temerity to walk out of the door at 5pm - my finishing time, and called spineless, weak, part-timer, and all sorts of names, followed by a bellowing laugh to try to make out it was a 'joke.' I went part time when I had a couple of children (3 days one week/4 the next,) but still had the same amount of work given to me as when I did 5 days a week. And they said 'as soon they go to school you can work full time again.'

I would even have some days where I turned up 20 minutes early because that's what time the bus got me there (next bus would have made me late,) and I would think 'cool, I can get a coffee and sit down and send a few messages to people,' (and then start work at 8.30am.) Within 2 minutes of getting in, the Manager would barge into the office I worked in and say 'your 8.30am interview is waiting!' I'd say 'but it's only 8.13am.' He'd raise his voice at me and say 'just get off your arse and do your job - they're here now. Get in there and interview them!' So I started to turn up at no earlier than 8.25am to stop this happening. (Just took a slow walk from the bus station and had a little walk through the little park nearby.)

It got me down so much and put me on the edge of a nervous breakdown - and I actually ended up giving the job up. I started working part time as a waitress in a Chinese Restaurant for 16 hours a week for minimum pay. I was happier in that waitressing job than I'd been in the 13-ish years in the previous workplace. I stayed there (in the Chinese Restaurant) for 2 years before retraining and getting an admin job with the council. 2 days one week, 3 the next. And I was given a reasonable and moderate amount of work!

I've got two DC both late 20s, and the older one worked for the local authority for quite a while, and then she decided she wanted to go into the private sector doing a 'dream job' - and she started working for and up and coming new company. They did nothing but work her to the bone, and some days they said 'no-one gets to leave until this certain project is done.' Some days she was working 8am til 9pm. It was fucking disgusting. 70 hours a week some weeks. She was an absolute wreck - and again she was laughed at and mocked for having audacity to want to work 'only' 9-10 hours some days.

So she ended up going back into the public sector. She now does 4 days a week. She still gets about £40K - so she's fine. and her partner gets £60K so they're doing all right. My other DD and partner both work for the Government, and are happy in their work. They've got a lovely work life balance - and do 9 day fortnights. They all have a good amount of holiday leave too. And they get paid in full if they're off sick.

@Usunshine You definitely need to find another job. This sounds like a horrific place to work. I was hoping this type of workplace was burning itself out now, and thought this ballbreaking attitude had been consigned to the past, but my older DD's experience proved it hasn't! And so does yours!!!

I grew up in an age where women were supposed to have it all ... Have children, and the home, and be a good wifey and mommy, and have a successful career - training and training to get the top of the career ladder. (My workplace used to virtually force people to do an HNC, and even in a few cases, a degree, but it was in a subject related to the job, not a subject that interests them.)

Unfortunately, while women were working their finger to the bone at work, nobody else was doing anything in the house - so the woman had to go home and do everything; cook, clean, housework, any evening activity with the children etc... And children were just pushed out to childminders.

I don't think you can have a career that involves working 60+ hours a week or more, and be a really good parent. I'm sorry, I just don't think you can. You can't do both. They're both demanding jobs. I don't mean you can't be a working mom, but you can't be working 60-70 hours a week and be a good parent - you just can't. I chose to be a good parent. Fuck work.

It was when my children got to 4 and 5, that I gave up my horrible demanding job, and just worked 16 hours a week at the Chinese Restaurant, and then as I said, went to work for council 2-3 days a week after 2 years - in a much less demanding role than I was in my old (horrible!) job...! My 2 DD loved me being at home much more, and I never went full time again... They're now both nearly 30...

CountryCob · 11/11/2024 11:17

Hello, I have worked in this type of environment and left the industry, I now work within my professional sphere but not in that sort of role. Also have a lot od hard won and impressive qualifications and have always been good at my job and concientious. It was very wearing being judged for working hard for a full day, the environment was also mildly sexually harassing which is always fun. I didn't want to make partner and I don't miss it at all. I worked really hard only to be sniffed at for leaving before 7. When I was a trainee I worked so hard you needed to lie down in the loo, I saw someone work 36hrs straight for no real reason only to be on hand. Think it is going to be hard to fill the junior spots in the future. Massive bullying egos everywhere. Maybe its time for a change?

Moveonward · 11/11/2024 11:26

I am in my early 40’s and have a senior role within the NHS, work full time with a long commute with a family. This past 2 years I have been also studying for an advanced qualification to enhance the service.

I have absolutely worked myself to the bone this year trying to juggle everything.. so much so I put off a health issue for 5 months as I simply didn’t have the headspace or time to deal with it which has now bit me in the bum and is far worse than it would have been had I got this investigated early this year. I am now off sick and it’s likely to be a sickness period of several months.

honestly I could kick myself for thinking that the job is more important than my own well-being. I have more treatment to go but still feel I should be back working. I know in my heart of hearts I’m a cog in a vast machine and the only person really who is going to advocate for myself is me

JoJothegerbil · 11/11/2024 11:31

Eric sounds like a twat. Not one person says on their death bed, 'I wish I'd worked more'.

booisbooming · 11/11/2024 11:32

My stepdad was rather high up in a public sector role and he said in the 70s and early 80s it was totally normal for people to sit around drinking tea away from their desks, read the newspaper properly, nip to the pub at lunchtime and everyone finished at 5 unless there was a problem, and staying later only ever meant an hour or so. I reckon "Eric" is a sandwich generation of gen X/elder millennials, and the Boomers were actually more like Gen Z.

Oblomov24 · 11/11/2024 11:32

What a knob Eric sounds. Err no thanks.

rookiemere · 11/11/2024 11:35

Thinking about this in my 50s. I was happy to work long hours in my 20s as a) I had more energy and b) at that time there was still a pretty direct correlation between working hard and progressing up the career ladder in the same company.

These days the link is pretty much broken and the only way to get a decent pay rise is move company. At my age I can't cope with long hours so I have to be good at what I do in my paid hours, which is how it should be for everyone.

UK productivity would be just fine without unpaid overtime if most people worked productively in their paid hours ( instead of Mumsnetting - oops )

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/11/2024 11:35

So Eric is saying that when he asks you to do something he wants you to say no and then he'll give you a payrise? You can do that!

Back in the 1990s in her first job my DSis' boss got upset that DSis worked very hard during the day to finish all her work and leave on time. So DSis slowed down and did the same amount of work but stayed later. Her boss was very happy and DSis got paid overtime.

Alphaalga · 11/11/2024 11:36

Individuals like Ear-ache are obliviously confined by the misery of their own ambition and have always been the bane of my life.

I'll be clocking off at half-five with the young 'uns.

Oblomov24 · 11/11/2024 11:36

@PlopSofa
I like him, he's really good isn't he? Quite a few of his I like.

Kate8889 · 11/11/2024 11:37

My mom's work gave a posthumous award to a colleague of my mom's for "being a dedicated worker". They'd pushed him so hard that he died of a heart attack. Do you really think that's worth it?

Weonlyhavealoanofit · 11/11/2024 11:48

We seem to have abandoned so many beliefs :
wages covering real living costs
work is only a part of the life of a citizen
society requires the active participation of its citizens
we live in communities …..

To be sick of this, think it is utter bollocks and the next generation are actually bang on?
Xenia · 11/11/2024 11:50

booisbooming, I agree. People didn't work as long hours when I started in 1983 (lawyer, London). Some people got the 5.55pm train back to the home counties every night for a 40 year career for example or an hour later on some occasions. What seems to have happened is that my £13k pay in 1985 after applying inflation at exactly the same job is now about 3x as high even after we allow for inflation as we moved through the 80s into boom times, loadsamoney etc. My father, a doctor, came home for lunch almost every day of his working life for example. He worked very hard when a junior doctor with many on calls when younger, but not most of his career although he chose to work long hours when he also did some of his self employed work on top of the NHS job.

I started working for myself in 1994 and have worked some very long hours but it has been on my terms and entirely for my own profit.

However I do think some people make an actively choice that they want the chance to earn £1m a year in due course and sacrifice everything for that in some of these very long hour jobs and that is their choice and there are huge numbers of really top graduates who want those jobs.

In this case of "Eric" I would just say - good plan, looking forward to that pay rise, smile and then continue working the hours as before doing good work. Don't play Eric's game.

DogInATent · 11/11/2024 11:53

He then proceeded to say next I want to really mount the pressure, I want you to be feeling you have too much work and have to say to me ‘(Eric), I can’t take this on, it’s too much.’ I want you to almost feel like there’s so much on that you are non stop. That will mean next year we can talk about more money. It will mean late nights of course. We want to keep building more and more.

Telling Eric to Foxtrot Oscar would be the response I would like to make.

But with bills to pay:

  • polish up your CV
  • start looking for new jobs
  • quote Eric's words verbatim to HR if you think it will get anywhere
I'd also have words with ACAS and/or an employment lawyer. I am not a lawyer, but I would be concerned that Eric is about to make your work life overbearing in order to drive you out of the job.
stargazerlil · 11/11/2024 11:56

Eric has cottoned on that you are very good at what you do and get it done quickly, so he’s figured out you’re a good bet on pushing for more. But the money he promises won’t ever be there, just a carrot on a string.
Answer do the opposite, start to slowly slow down and keep slowing down until to reach a pace that suits you.
Eric will find someone else to pick on soon.

scorpiogirly · 11/11/2024 11:58

I'd be looking for a new job. I work but when I log off that's it. I couldn't imagine having to put my own time in well into the night or on weekends. I'd rather have less money and more time.

Crucible · 11/11/2024 12:00

God what a twat of a manager.

Nobody ever looked back on their life and wished they'd spent more time at work.

beeeeeeez · 11/11/2024 12:09

Work smarter not harder...used to get trotted out to us in teaching, normally by HTs. I'm still in therapy.

Clock off at 5.30. Have down time. You will be way more productive. I now work in a job which is equally long hours but completely flexible, and I'm treated like a professional. The reduction in stress is incredible.

Eric is a knob.

DemonicCaveMaggot · 11/11/2024 12:14

Eric is an idiot manager.

I was lucky at my old place of work. Our HR manager set up a clear career path for the chemical operators and lab technicians and what they needed to do to get pay rises. It was all about coming up with ideas to improve the company's performance, training new employees, experience, and doing things more effectively.

None of it was about working yourself into the ground.

There were employees who didn't even have a high school diploma who were earning $15,000 a year more than a new graduate engineer would have taken in.

We had very low employee turnover and it made my job as a manager so much easier and my employees much happier.

Look for another job.

GoldsolesLugs · 11/11/2024 12:16

a) How sympathetic I am depends on how you are getting paid. You have to decide what your threshold is for putting up with this shit.
b) Your manager's a dick, as PP have said, but could he also be leaving the company open for tribunal - he's essentially said that he's going to deliberately cause you stress/mental health issues.
c) Could it be constructive dismissal?
c) Is it a career where there's a defined path to seniority (e.g. a lawyer getting made partner? If not they're probably trying to exploit you - the promotion will always be 6 months away. I think most people get more money by moving employers.

wildfellhall · 11/11/2024 12:19

Time to start working on getting out of
there however long it takes.
Working for a twat like that usually doesn't end well.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 11/11/2024 12:19

Applesonthelawn · 11/11/2024 09:28

There is the narrow view which says you should look after yourself only.
Then there's the wider, more socially responsible view, that says we need to increase productivity so that society can pay its way and create the NHS and services more generally that we all aspire to. That money comes from government and there's a relationship between GDP and the amount of money government can spend.
What I see is people putting their work/life balance ahead of productivity - that's the situation you describe too.
It's reasonable up to a point but after that point it becomes an empty soundbite to attract votes. Work/life balance should be improved where it is consistent with the society we want to create (good services, etc.). As long as people are trained to think only in the narrow view of what's good for them, no government, no matter what political orientation, will be able to afford the society we want.
The balance comes when people develop resilience consistent with their focus on work/life balance. When the priority is work/life balance alone, that's not great.

It's very telling that nothing in this post acknowledges how unpaid caring responsibilities outside the job are part of a lot of people's work-life balance. If you want to talk about social responsibility and GDP, those things need to be very prominent in the discussion. Focus on wage labour alone certainly won't suffice. The premise of much of it is poor anyway, but you're not even making your own argument well.

LBFseBrom · 11/11/2024 12:23

You are young to be talking about 'the next generation'. Methinks it is time for a career change.

pinkgrevillea · 11/11/2024 12:24

I used to agree with the snowflake term but now I admire their boundaries. They don't have that same drive to achieve that older generations do because they are thinking about climate breakdown and honestly a lot don't believe they'll get old, have children, own a house, so why work themselves to the bone? I think they have a point.