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Iraq to lower the ‘age of consent’ for girls to nine

485 replies

Waitingforfriday75 · 09/11/2024 07:35

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/women-and-girls/iraq-poised-to-lower-the-age-of-consent-for-girls-to-nine/

Posted here as it gets the most traffic. This is by far the worst news I’ve heard all year. Imagine at the age you were meant to start secondary school instead being forced to marry and have sex with an older man. Completely disgusting!!!

Iraq to lower the ‘age of consent’ for girls to nine

A new law proposed by ultra conservative Shia Muslim parties seeks to strip women and girls of their rights

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/women-and-girls/iraq-poised-to-lower-the-age-of-consent-for-girls-to-nine

OP posts:
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BabyEl · 27/11/2024 21:31

Scirocco · 16/11/2024 08:09

What's your reasoning there? Wars are horrible, but not always characterised by genocidal intent and genocidal acts. It is the presence of both of these, widespread and sustained, which means multiple experts from around the world have expressed that they consider this to be a genocidal campaign against Palestinians.

lol, no.

BabyEl · 27/11/2024 21:33

Fizzle1 · 16/11/2024 21:13

I’ll take this comment in good faith, as obviously if someone isn’t personally or professionally interested or trained in these areas then I can see how maybe the differences aren’t obvious however there is actually quite a specific difference.

War is generally categorised as one armed actor trying to destroy another armed actors power / resources and will to resist. So for example, the war on ISIS. ISIS, although not a state was/is an armed actor, and the American/ Iraqi coalition force as another armed actor had a goal to destroy the power and will of ISIS (as an armed actor) to resist.

However genocide is categorised as one armed actor working to destroy an UNARMED social group’s will to resist, and the key difference is that genocide is against an UNARMED group of people.

For example, the Srebenica genocide, where an armed actor (Bosnian Serb army of Republica Srpska) killed 8,000 unarmed Bosniak Muslim men and boys and committed the forcible transfer and abuse of maybe 30,000 Bosniak Muslim women, men, boys and girls - this has been deemed a genocide as the mass killing of 8,000 men and boys coupled with the forcible transfer of Bosniak Muslim individuals was an example of an armed actor looking to eliminate a group of unarmed people based solely on their collective identify as Bosniak Muslims.

The criteria for genocide are set in the genocide convention and if a full case of genocide is brought against Israel at some point - these will be the criteria that the plaintiff will look to prove.

Edited

Pretty sure Hamas we’re armed…so…

Fizzle1 · 27/11/2024 22:33

BabyEl · 27/11/2024 21:33

Pretty sure Hamas we’re armed…so…

Yes correct. Hamas are an armed non state actor / perhaps a state actor I suppose that would depend on your definition of legitimacy.

However the 2 million odd other residents of Gaza are civilians - and once again I’m sure we’re all adult enough to understand that civilians are different to an armed state or non state actor.

And given the enormous impact Israel’s actions have had on the civilian population of Gaza that is why other states are currently submitting evidence to the court that is tasked with investigating accusations of genocide, as they believe, that genocide is occurring. Israel or other states would be able to provide a rebuttal as they do not believe they are committing genocide.

If the court decides to take a full case forward, the criteria they will look at is clearly set out in conventions.

Scirocco · 27/11/2024 23:40

BabyEl · 27/11/2024 21:31

lol, no.

Do you, perhaps, have a more detailed argument to make? Possibly an explanation of your reasons for disputing the arguments put forward by individuals and organisations such as Boston University, the Lemkin Institute, Amos Goldberg, Omer Bartov, etc.? Or a critique of the processes of the various bodies investigating war crimes and a charge of genocide, which have raised multiple concerns about genocidal intent and genocidal acts? Or consideration of why you disagree with the multiple concerns about genocidal intent and genocidal acts, which have raised by human rights organisations based around the world?

BabyEl · 01/12/2024 07:11

Scirocco · 27/11/2024 23:40

Do you, perhaps, have a more detailed argument to make? Possibly an explanation of your reasons for disputing the arguments put forward by individuals and organisations such as Boston University, the Lemkin Institute, Amos Goldberg, Omer Bartov, etc.? Or a critique of the processes of the various bodies investigating war crimes and a charge of genocide, which have raised multiple concerns about genocidal intent and genocidal acts? Or consideration of why you disagree with the multiple concerns about genocidal intent and genocidal acts, which have raised by human rights organisations based around the world?

Sure, anti-semites are like rats. They put up everywhere. A bunch of them have invaded universities.

the in itself is clearly anti-Semitic.

i couldn’t care less what a professor from x from university y has to say. The facts are obvious.

israel is not committing genocide. In the period you are discussing the population of Gaza has increased.

the only reason the genocide trope is wheeled out (every single time) against Israel and no other state is because of anti-Semites who want to hurt Jews by minimizing their historical suffering.

the definition of anti-semitism includes accusing Jews of committing genocide.

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

that lots of people do it only means there are lots of anti-semites out there. Nothing new though, there always have been.

What is antisemitism?

With the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, the IHRA built international consensus around an answer to the question, what does antisemitism mean?

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

Scirocco · 01/12/2024 08:57

BabyEl · 01/12/2024 07:11

Sure, anti-semites are like rats. They put up everywhere. A bunch of them have invaded universities.

the in itself is clearly anti-Semitic.

i couldn’t care less what a professor from x from university y has to say. The facts are obvious.

israel is not committing genocide. In the period you are discussing the population of Gaza has increased.

the only reason the genocide trope is wheeled out (every single time) against Israel and no other state is because of anti-Semites who want to hurt Jews by minimizing their historical suffering.

the definition of anti-semitism includes accusing Jews of committing genocide.

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

that lots of people do it only means there are lots of anti-semites out there. Nothing new though, there always have been.

Ah, the "We've had enough of experts" approach.

So, you're suggesting that Amos Goldberg and Omer Bartov are... antisemitic?

Where's your evidence for your claim that the population of Gaza has increased? You seem to believe that quite strongly, so presumably this is based on robust evidence published somewhere? Where are these "obvious facts" available, as many people seem to have not had access to them?

When you say the charge of genocide has only been raised against Israel and no other states, that's incorrect. In recent years there have also been condemnations of genocidal acts carried out in Sudan, Myanmar, Iraq (Islamic State), DR Congo, Rwanda and Bosnia, as well as condemnation of the persecution and ethnic cleansing of others. China has regularly been accused of genocidal acts and intent against the Uighur Muslims (but that doesn't get much publicity).

Fizzle1 · 01/12/2024 14:35

BabyEl · 01/12/2024 07:11

Sure, anti-semites are like rats. They put up everywhere. A bunch of them have invaded universities.

the in itself is clearly anti-Semitic.

i couldn’t care less what a professor from x from university y has to say. The facts are obvious.

israel is not committing genocide. In the period you are discussing the population of Gaza has increased.

the only reason the genocide trope is wheeled out (every single time) against Israel and no other state is because of anti-Semites who want to hurt Jews by minimizing their historical suffering.

the definition of anti-semitism includes accusing Jews of committing genocide.

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

that lots of people do it only means there are lots of anti-semites out there. Nothing new though, there always have been.

So a few different things to address. I think there’s some difference between the definition you have posted the link to and the comments you have posted here. In the working definition you shared it specifically states this:

“Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic’”

Which is a really important section, and I think this thread highlights well. Israel itself is a self proclaimed democracy. This means, like all other democratic states (and as mentioned in the above definition of anti-semitism) Israel is open to the same level of criticism as any other state is. Much like how the OP created this thread to discuss a disgusting proposal suggested in Iraq (also a country which is technically - although very loosely!! A democracy, even though there is a large majority of one ethnic religious group) - it would not be Islamophobic for the OP to raise concerns against this proposed change of law, as the OP was directing her concerns and outrage against the (loosely) democratic state of Iraq and its laws, not as targeting a collective Islamic community of that country.

It is not anti-semitic it itself to make an evidence based claim of genocide against the state of Israel, which as I’ve mentioned multiple times previously - would be treated as all other states and investigated under the same criteria as all other states who have had genocide claims brought against them.

The poster above has highlighted other states that have current claims or historic claims against them. Where the political leaders have also had various ICC warrants for their arrests based on the evidence of war crimes.

However you are right to point out that there has been a sharp increase in recorded anti-semitic hate crimes from Oct 2023 - present.

Also a HUGE misconception is that people seem to think there has to be a certain number of individuals slaughtered in order to make something a genocide - when actually “killing of individuals” is only one of the areas covered in the genocide convention. Which would also be massively dystopian if you think about it, if Britain wanted to kill off the Americans but not be accused of genocide they could just sit there and calculate “oh well the population is 300 million, so we can get away with killing 30 million or 10 million and still be under the genocide quota” - For example of course - but that’s a pretty dark way to look at it in my opinion….

In the Sebrenica massacre over 8,000 men and boys were killed, however this accounts for roughly only 0.97% of the Bosniak Muslim population, General Krstic actually tried to appeal his verdict of genocide by saying 8000 was such an insignificant number it can’t be genocide and this was thrown out - because of the other elements of the genocide convention.

I’d also like to highlight this that you have stated “the definition of anti-semitism includes accusing Jews of committing genocide.” - you are absolutely correct - this WOULD be anti-semitic as it would be an example of holding Jewish people collectively responsible for the actions of the STATE of Israel, which as defined by the IHRA is an example of anti-semitism.

However you are the only person to have said this, and use this language, the poster you are replying to has specifically stated they feel the STATE of Israel is committing genocide, and has at no point attributed this action collectively to Jewish people as a whole. And as mentioned in my first paragraph, the IHRA specifically states that criticism against the STATE is not anti-semitic, as long as the level of criticism is the same as any other nation state would receive.

BabyEl · 10/12/2024 12:47

Scirocco · 01/12/2024 08:57

Ah, the "We've had enough of experts" approach.

So, you're suggesting that Amos Goldberg and Omer Bartov are... antisemitic?

Where's your evidence for your claim that the population of Gaza has increased? You seem to believe that quite strongly, so presumably this is based on robust evidence published somewhere? Where are these "obvious facts" available, as many people seem to have not had access to them?

When you say the charge of genocide has only been raised against Israel and no other states, that's incorrect. In recent years there have also been condemnations of genocidal acts carried out in Sudan, Myanmar, Iraq (Islamic State), DR Congo, Rwanda and Bosnia, as well as condemnation of the persecution and ethnic cleansing of others. China has regularly been accused of genocidal acts and intent against the Uighur Muslims (but that doesn't get much publicity).

I think it’s interesting that you quote a Jew who agrees with you, but you ignore the hundreds of Jews who disagree.

i’m sure there’s a word for that kind of behaviour. I can’t remember what it is. Can you help?

Scirocco · 10/12/2024 13:17

BabyEl · 10/12/2024 12:47

I think it’s interesting that you quote a Jew who agrees with you, but you ignore the hundreds of Jews who disagree.

i’m sure there’s a word for that kind of behaviour. I can’t remember what it is. Can you help?

Goldberg and Bartov are two internationally respected experts in their fields. They have dedicated years to developing their expertise, and present clear, evidence-based opinions. They have made those opinions publicly available, including the rationale for how they reached those conclusions and changed their opinions in light of new evidence.

On the other points I previously raised, do you have robust evidence available that demonstrates population growth during the conflict time period? Most analyses appear to show significant casualty rates and mortality among children, rather than net population growth. You also said only Israel has faced accusations/allegations of genocide - whereas there appear to be multiple reports of other countries having been condemned or criticised for genocidal acts/intent - do you have evidence that those reports have been incorrect?

Fizzle1 · 10/12/2024 14:14

BabyEl · 10/12/2024 12:47

I think it’s interesting that you quote a Jew who agrees with you, but you ignore the hundreds of Jews who disagree.

i’m sure there’s a word for that kind of behaviour. I can’t remember what it is. Can you help?

I don’t entirely understand the post, so would be useful for a bit of clarity as it seems from the wording (although I could be completely wrong here with your intended meaning!) that you’re suggesting there is a specific word for another poster disagreeing with some people who happen to also identify ethnically and religiously as Jewish.

I think we all know what word you are suggesting, and trying to insinuate that a poster is disagreeing on the point of genocide because they are anti-Semitic, when the poster themselves has citied the evidence they are basing the disagreement on, which has nothing to do with a group of people who hold a different opinion and also happen to identity as Jewish, is frankly absurd.

If the poster in question had made a derogatory comment based on someone’s self identification as part of the Jewish faith or ethnicity, and then went on to say they don’t agree with the particular group of Jewish people who say the state of Israel’s actions are not genocidal BECAUSE they dislike Jewish people - then that would be very important to address as completely unacceptable and anti-Semitic.

But that hasn’t happened at all….

The poster has cited specific experts who hold the same opinion as them, to explain their argument as to why they believe that the state of Israel is engaging in acts that fall under the genocide convention, where the experts also happen to identify as Jewish.

It’s perfectly acceptable for individuals to disagree with each other online or in person or to disagree with a group of people who happen to hold different opinions to them based on objective evidence - this is the entire debate process.

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