To think this is a crazy maths challenge for a Y4?!

[Newbie887]

My son in Y4 has been coming home the past few weeks talking about a maths challenge his class do each Thursday. They have 100 multiplication questions using times tables up to 12, and have 10 mins to answer all the questions. Fine.

However, they can only move up to the next challenge when they manage to get 100% of questions right in under 3 mins. under 3 mins?!? That’s like 1.8 seconds to read and answer each question!

He is putting a lot of pressure on himself and is getting frustrated that he can’t get near the 3 mins (currently gets 100% but in 6-7 mins). is off school today and wanted to practice which is why I’m now processing how hard this is!!

he goes to a state primary, it’s a good school but nothing special.

am I just crap at maths or is this extremely hard for 8/9 yr olds?

I think it depends. Is he having to write the answer down? Times tables is pure rote learning, so they’re trying to train him to know the answer immediately. Bear in mind the questions like 2x2 and 2x5 will probably take him significantly less than 1.8 seconds to answer, so that time is banked for a more challenging question. It takes a split second to read a calculation, it’s not like reading a sentence, so if he then says the answer out loud or selects a button on an iPad, I’d say that’s enough time. If he has to write it down, however, it’s not enough.

10 minutes to answers questions. 100 questions.

So 6 seconds per question.

If you learn your times tables up to 12 rote then you you can answer probably in a couple of seconds, so probably about 3x as much time as you need.

I think by year 4 I had all my times tables learnt rote but it was a long time ago so I don't know for sure. I would guesstimate that it was there or thereabouts. Maybe 7-8 rather than 8-9.

From what I have heard from ds yr 4 teacher there is a standardised government test at the end of the year relating to times tables. They have a certain amount of time to answer each question and it is extremely fast.

Yes but they are aiming to do it in under 3 mins

they write it down. My best today has been 98 in 5 mins 30. Admittedly my times tables could be better. If this is the standard they are getting kids to these days though then wow. I remember doing a maths test for streaming at the start of yr 7 and trying to work out what 10 x 10 was. Got it wrong but still ended up in the middle set.

Sorry missed that bit.

Yes I could have done that at that age and probably is clear evidence you know them rote.

They only have to do it once and it hardly takes any time to write down a mostly 2 digit number. Probably harder on a pad.

Apparently there’s a boy in his class who has done it! I’m seriously impressed 😂

My son has just moved in to Year 5 but Year 4 was ALL about times tables.
He and his peers were completing them on the Times Tables Rockstars iPad game.
After months of practice they had to complete a compulsory Government test to check their times tables knowledge and recall so this is what they will be working towards.
I was shocked at the time limit too and I couldn’t believe they had to go past the 12x tables that we had to do!
But I’ll be honest, over time and with lots of practice he nailed it. The school tried to make the practice really fun and we were shown their speed progress over the weeks.
Our school did an evening for the parents to explain why they were focusing on times tables and how to support pupils at home.
If your school don’t offer this then definitely have a chat with the teacher.

Put a photo of it up here. I'll have a go and I bet some others will. If no one here can do it in under 3 mins then it's more than fair to conclude that a year 4 child won't be able to

My DS could probably do it on an iPad but his writing takes a lot of effort so there’s no way he could do it. Maybe possible for a more typical Y4 child though, I’m not sure.

With TTRS (if that's what this is), I would say that a handful of kids per class can get to sub 2 seconds per question. It's a memory test and they're the ones who practice the most, possibly too much. Your son's timings suggest that he is still having to work some out rather than having instant recall. Accuracy is more important than speed though. Sounds like he's doing great!

It would be interesting to know if the set of kids who can do this in Y4 has any intersect with the set of kids who do A level maths.

This is what they are working towards but I would be checking why they have to complete it so quickly

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6724ae64c053e87b6a0a81e4/Information_for_parents_multiplication_tables_check.pdf

There is a government times tables test in year 4. More information here:

www.timestables.co.uk/multiplication-tables-check/

School will be gearing them up for the governments times tables text at the end of year 4. Fair play to them for trying to make it fun.

Sounds like Times Table Rock Stars (TTRS). DD3 moved from a school in year 4 that did not use TTRS to a school that did. She came out on the first day saying 'Mum, they do TTRS, and they were so fast. I didn't even finish!' I said 'Baby girl, you have some catching up to do, then'. Within 2 weeks, she was getting 100% in under 3 minutes and was one of, if not the, fastest in the class.

It's just turning calculation into recall.

Times tables is not really maths though, it’s a memory test. DS is pretty good at times tables because his memory is amazing, but his understanding of maths concepts is (for want of a better word!) rubbish!

Amazing, well done her! Yes he plays TTRS but only a couple of times a week. We don’t really practice times tables at home. Actually having thought about it I think the under 3 mins is def achievable if you do both of these things. I think it’s a great idea, it helps mental maths so much and is one of those areas of maths you do actually need as an adult

Politely, that's utter garbage! The ability to quick access number facts such as times tables is one of the cornerstones of making further progress and achieving success in Mathematics. In the '60s and '70s it became 'wrong' to teach tables, and other things like fractions and it's taken years to recover from that, there are teachers in Primary schools who never learned their tables and have had to develop the skill later. Rote learning may be unfashionable but it is necessary or we will all be relying on some mechanical or electronic intervention.

It's nuts isn't it?! My year 4 uses times tables rock stars and has been told that she needs to get her average answer to under 2 seconds! She was upset because she's been working really hard to get them correct, and finds the time element really stressful (which it absolutely is).
I'm a real maths fan, I fully appreciate that knowing times tables well is really important, but training for this test is unhinged.

The goverment test doesn’t go past 12 x12

Exactly.

The kids who pause on 7x8 and use their fingers to check will probably understand maths better.

It absolutely is achievable and a big aim of year 3/4 is to get fast and accurate memory recall of them. TTRS for 5 mins a day is ideal.

At my son’s school, his weekly homework was up to the 17 x table and they had a test every Friday up to 17 too.
My brain exploded trying to practice with him 🙈

Download the TT rockstars app. It'll be good practice for him.