To think this is a crazy maths challenge for a Y4?!

[Newbie887]

My son in Y4 has been coming home the past few weeks talking about a maths challenge his class do each Thursday. They have 100 multiplication questions using times tables up to 12, and have 10 mins to answer all the questions. Fine.

However, they can only move up to the next challenge when they manage to get 100% of questions right in under 3 mins. under 3 mins?!? That’s like 1.8 seconds to read and answer each question!

He is putting a lot of pressure on himself and is getting frustrated that he can’t get near the 3 mins (currently gets 100% but in 6-7 mins). is off school today and wanted to practice which is why I’m now processing how hard this is!!

he goes to a state primary, it’s a good school but nothing special.

am I just crap at maths or is this extremely hard for 8/9 yr olds?

With respect, OP, this is what they’re trying to avoid. Not knowing what 10x10 is at age - what? - 12 is actually pretty shocking. Mental maths is so important for so many basic tasks in life, I’m glad they drill it into them early.

There is no need to be using first principles to solve 7x8 (as per the poster above), it is just one of those basic things you need to
learn in the same way you learn vocabulary and grammar in modern languages.

There’s no reason they can’t have an understanding of maths concepts and know times tables.

It's achievable - not for DS1 if they wanted it written (and they wanted to be able to read it after) but spoken I reckon he'd get there in a week or two like a PP - both the kids have pretty good times tables as I drilled them in the car from the start of primary (I wasn't made to learn them at school, and it's been a life-long issue that I only have a couple on instant recall)

@LouH1981 I assume that was differentiated homework. My DS would have loved that, but not necessary for someone who isn’t naturally fascinated by numbers and just needs to be able to access the ability to do times tables

Here you go, good luck!! We don’t have a printer so have written out a couple of copies for him, hopefully I’ve rubbed out the pencil answers enough that you can’t cheat 🤣

Sorry, they were drilled into me in yr2 by nuns. They’re still there!

As PP have said:

1. times tables are fundamental to lots of maths so absolutely need to be solid. One of the best things to practise at home. Otherwise say they are doing fractions or long division, the time and cognitive load are much higher.

1. they should be recalling fairly instantly, not thinking about it for several seconds or working it out.

Yes looking back it was shocking (I was very scared of my maths teacher in primary so didn’t ask when I didn’t understand things). but I was still put in the middle set at age 11! Are standards / expectations much higher in school now I wonder. Tbh not being good at times tables has been annoying my entire life

The extent to which times tables is maths is an interesting philosophical point, but I agree with @Probablygreen and other PPs that this is a memorisation test.

It can be taken too far, but at the moment we have a home student cohort who don’t all have a basic number sense. That’s a lack and it causes trouble for them. Knowing their times tables ice cold would be helpful.

I found some worksheets up to 12x 12 with 50 problems each and even sitting awkwardly I, who do know them cold, can write correct answers legibly in just over 1min per sheet. I am not a fast writer. There is nothing about being an adult or knowing more maths that helps with this challenge. So whilst I think the bar is rather high, it is quite possible.

(I don’t mean to sound like a prat. I lack many desirable skills)

I would probably not go about things the same way as this teacher. But s/he sets the rules! Perhaps it would help DS to practise - in a fun setting, hopefully, between attempts?

I'm not sure thins is anything new or unachievable. In the 1970s when I was at Middle School (Y3-Y6) the whole school had to do a times tables test, same time every Monday morning.
There were 99 questions and the idea was to learn by rote and be able to do them in sub 3 mins. The person who did them in the fastest time each week was stood up in assembly and given a yellow string vest to wear for the day (some kind of homage to the Tour De France) 😂

🤣

Sorry, this is bollocks.
Times tables knowledge underpins many other concepts.
Having quick access to these kinds of facts, number bonds and patterns is invaluable.
I teach year 6 maths. My best mathematicians know their tables off by heart. All their concentration and thought processing can go into applying the knowledge to problem solving etc rather than spent on working out what 6x8 is.

I did it in 2 mins 35. Not particularly neatly, but completed.

At schools that use ttrs, many many children will be able to answer each question in less than 2 seconds.

The aim is to just know the answer and not have to in anyway work it out, so it's completely embedded.

The same as if someone asked you your name you wouldn't have to think the answer.

The intention is for the end of year 4 for every single child to have that sort of recall for every single times table.

To then help embed basic numeracy.

Get him doing ten minutes of ttrs every day and he'll very quickly get there

I never said it wasn’t useful, just that its purpose is not to teach underlying concepts, because it isn’t. Rote learning of times tables absolutely is essential, it’s probably the maths I use most as an adult.
The point I’m making is that you don’t have to be good at maths to be good at times tables, and I stand by that comment.

I don't personally think it's garbage. Your suggestion that learning times tables helps in later study of maths may be true but that doesn't mean learning times tables is maths.

Whilst there may well be at least some correlation between kids who are great at times tables in year 4 and kids who do A level maths, I suspect that is at least partly due to those kids having a positive early experience of succeeding in the subject and so seeing it more as their 'thing', as opposed to a direct causal link.

My suspicion is that the link between Y4 times tables success and top grades at A level would be weaker, and the link with success at degree level and beyond weaker still. This is mostly based on the handful of academic mathematicians I know personally. One, a senior lecturer with a CV including Oxford and Harvard, is particularly useless. Let's just say if we're out for dinner and the bill needs splitting I'd sooner trust an engineer or an accountant than a mathematician.

Let's be honest, OP, the fact that it takes you 5 minutes to get 98 correct isn't exactly saying it's a tough test. It's just confirming you didn't memorise your times tables as a child.

I attended school in a different country and it was perfectly normal in the 1970s and 80s there for every child by the age of 9 to know all times tables like they knew their colours and alphabet. Once they are nailed in, they are there for life and it's easy.

As for the person who mentioned 7x8 - that's clearly the best and easiest one because 5678. (It is definitely not weird to have a favourite times table, I assure you)

I’d understood it was done on a computer??? How does he access the questions at home?

Which part of what I said is bollocks? I’m not disputing that it’s essential. I was responding to the poster who wondered if the people who were fast at times tables were also the people doing A Level maths, and the answer is no, because you can be good at times tables without being good at maths, and conversely, as per a PP, you can be good at maths without being good at times tables.

It's a test of processing power not maths skill though which infuriates me.

DD is a complicated maths whizz, is doing Further Maths at GCSE and gets 9s in all assessments and will do it at A levels. Still uses her fingers for timetables though - also struggles to read a clock and work out 24hr to 12 HR clocks and back again.

At DD3's school, they did the test on paper, but the school gave logins for the app to practice at home.

Accessing is one thing.

They may be able to recall 12 x 12 = 144
But can they use that knowledge to work out 14 x 12? And do they know why?

It's great to be able to recall times tables.
Applying them is another.
And there are children who may struggle with recalling the facts - but who do know how to apply those facts if they have a way of getting them

Sound like a Venn diagram to me.
Or Bayes theorem

It's also not essential to be able to recall tables facts instantly to be good at maths.

And people who can recall tables facts instantly are not necessarily good at maths.

The thing is @Newbie887 , when you're learning your times tables, you tend to learn each number in isolation. By that I mean you learn your 1, 2 and 3 times tables so 1 x 1 =1 and 1 x 2 = 2, and when you realise that 1 x 2 = 2 and 2 x 1 = 2 then you've cut the number of actual maths you have to be able to recall by half! Similarly 5 x 7 = 7 x 5 and so on.

If this is all multiplication being asked, your child should be able to see the similarities in the questions and therefore the result of each of these.

It's like the pairs games when we played cards. How quickly can he work that game out?

It’s just rote learning so you have a shortcut when doing other maths. It’s not about being good at maths. It’s about whether you were taught them at a young age until it became almost a reflex rather than a conscious thought.