To think this is a crazy maths challenge for a Y4?!

[Newbie887]

My son in Y4 has been coming home the past few weeks talking about a maths challenge his class do each Thursday. They have 100 multiplication questions using times tables up to 12, and have 10 mins to answer all the questions. Fine.

However, they can only move up to the next challenge when they manage to get 100% of questions right in under 3 mins. under 3 mins?!? That’s like 1.8 seconds to read and answer each question!

He is putting a lot of pressure on himself and is getting frustrated that he can’t get near the 3 mins (currently gets 100% but in 6-7 mins). is off school today and wanted to practice which is why I’m now processing how hard this is!!

he goes to a state primary, it’s a good school but nothing special.

am I just crap at maths or is this extremely hard for 8/9 yr olds?

We had this at school but in year 6. The fastest time was just under 3 minutes (not me!) but most people were doing it in up to about 8.minutes after some weeks of practice. Some never got below 10. Think ours was only up to 10 tables

Yes. I got A in A level maths and further maths (before A star existed l but I've never been very good at tables, still struggle with 7s and 8s and I use them quite a bit at work. Different skills

You said ‘it’s not really maths’ this is dismissive and makes it sound like it has no value. That is how it reads to me. And several other people if the posts following it are anything to go by!
Like I said, your original post did not explain yourself very well.

This is true. I am a year 6 TA and quick recall of times tables is essential. There are 36 questions in the arithmetic SATS paper and only 30 minutes to do it in. So many of the questions rely on quick recall of times tables and being able to use the facts to solve questions quickly. E.g 70x80 use base fact of 7x8=56 make the answer 100 x bigger 5600. 2 separate skills being tested with less than a minute to do it in. Fractions 1/3+1/4 knowing the lowest common denominator/multiple is 12 and being able to use this to change both fractions to twelfths. Division. The children who do well on this test are those that know times tables well but also have strategies to solve them quickly if they get a mental block- working from one they do know for example 7x8 if they know the square numbers 7x7 or 8x8 then they can work out the answer from there.

Any advice on how to help a year 4 child with ADHD learn their times tables to the point of instant recall?
She can't get on with TT rock stars as the time limit makes her freeze (or very angry) as does drilling tables orally.

She can do her tables much better on paper but they are encouraged/need to do it on a screen.
If we try TT rock stars she will ask me the same sum over and over again, it's like her brain just freezes and she can't access her knowledge.
I have no idea how she will get on with the govt times table check later in year 4, but I imagine not too well!
She is definitely not behind in maths, it just seems to be either the ADHD causing her difficulties in focusing or possible undiagnosed PDA meaning the demand of quick recall causes her to freeze.
Anyone with similar challenges had any success with learning tables?

It's essential to do well on the arithmetic SATs paper.

But GCSE maths is different to the arithmetic SATS paper.

I had a similiar conversation with my yr4 child this week. Her mind was blown by imperial.

TTRS has a section called ‘Jamming’ which isn’t timed, but progress still counts. Could you try getting her to use that instead? My DS also has ADHD and doesn’t deal well under pressure, so we use this mostly. He’s much faster on there when he knows he doesn’t necessarily have to be.

It’s because the government have introduced the most unrealistic times table test for year 4 where they have to answer each question in under 6 seconds.
The test is on the computer and you can’t change your answer, so if you accidentally press the wrong key… tough!!! Or if you have a dodgy key on the crap equipment schools are stuck with… tough!!!! If you don’t get 100% you’ve failed!!!!!
Yet another example of a waste of time and money.

There is no pass mark for the test. It can’t be failed.

What fascinates me is how many of my class struggled with binary, yet we all of us quite happily dealt on a daily basis with base 3 (ft in a yard) 4 (farthings), 8 (pints in a gallon) 10, 12 (pennies in a shilling), 14 (lbs in a stone), 16 (oz in a lb), 20 (shillings in a £), 24 (hrs in a day), 60 (sec, mins). Sometimes two or three different bases in the same sum!

Do we?

What's 2 stone 5lb 2 oz x 5

Decimals are so easy to use - and when you look at other measurements, it's not even bases.

1101 has a meaning in binary - as each place has a recognisable value based on powers of 2

But imperial measurements just seem to flip

e.g.2 st 5lb 2 oz - you need to remember to change once you get to 16 oz and then you need to change at 14 lb

And what about stones - at what point do you change then?

@cakeorwine

(Apologies in advance to those who are following the thread for the times table discussion)

Do we what? Do we use mixed bases in the same sum, or do we happily deal with it on a daily basis? I would say, at the time (pre 1972) the answer to both of those was yes.

e.g.2 st 5lb 2 oz - you need to remember to change once you get to 16 oz and then you need to change at 14 lb Yes, it's got mixed bases in the sum,

And what about stones - at what point do you change then? depends on whether you're going to work in cwt or go straight to tons.

Decimals are so easy to use because you're sticking to the same base throughout. Binary or octal or hexadecimal would be just as easy if we used it for everything.

The real beauty of the decimal system for me is that it's easy to swap between volume and weight (at least when you're dealing with something whose density is roughly that of water) - 1m cubed = 1 tonne, to the extent that I'll sometimes swap to decimal to do the sum and then back to imperial

What i like about imperial is that inches and feet are convenient measurements, whereas metric doesn't have anything between mm and m (cm isn't an official part of the metric system)

Knowing his tables that well will really help with later maths.

It's so they develop the quickfire skill which only comes with learning the timetables by heart. Times table rockstars for 5
/10mins every day would be a great practice for him and It's fun mine love it. Our oldest is really good at maths but lacked the quickfire skill it's definitely helped.

"What i like about imperial is that inches and feet are convenient measurements, whereas metric doesn't have anything between mm and m (cm isn't an official part of the metric system)"

That's the same thinking though with base 10 versus base 12. It's just because you're used to feet and inches that you can use them and find them convenient.

If we'd been using Base 12 all our lives, then base 10 would seem weird.

My DC is in year 3 and under 2 seconds a qu on ttrs for all 12 tables. DC just gets it, once you have the instant recall it is doable although plenty of children struggle and won't manage it by y4.

This!
I also lament the focus on arithmetic. I teach mathematics and find that children who have the mental agility for learning new concepts and selecting appropriate strategies when problem solving are not always a subset of the pupils who identify as being good at maths. This is quite often because they have been middle set kids early on having been put there after a test which focussed solely on arithmetic.
As an aside, I am notoriously unreliable when adding or subtracting biggish numbers. I put it down to having been accelerated through primary school when it became apparent that I could already read and knew my times-tables. I simply missed the early practice of addition and subtraction using manipulatives and learning number bonds and went straight onto written methods and problem solving. Go figure!

We stuck a poster with the times tables on the wall in the living room. About £5 from Amazon. They soon got it in their heads. I'm sure they do at tables test in Y4 so this is the build up to it.

I'd have had no trouble doing this by the time I was in Year 1 tbh, and I'm not particularly great at math's as an adult.