To think this is a crazy maths challenge for a Y4?!

[Newbie887]

My son in Y4 has been coming home the past few weeks talking about a maths challenge his class do each Thursday. They have 100 multiplication questions using times tables up to 12, and have 10 mins to answer all the questions. Fine.

However, they can only move up to the next challenge when they manage to get 100% of questions right in under 3 mins. under 3 mins?!? That’s like 1.8 seconds to read and answer each question!

He is putting a lot of pressure on himself and is getting frustrated that he can’t get near the 3 mins (currently gets 100% but in 6-7 mins). is off school today and wanted to practice which is why I’m now processing how hard this is!!

he goes to a state primary, it’s a good school but nothing special.

am I just crap at maths or is this extremely hard for 8/9 yr olds?

If you know your 4's, you know your 8's

You only really need to know half the list - if that, because 7 x 5 is 5 x7 etc

I went to a talk by Mandelbrot back in the 90s and he lamented his school’s focus on arithmetic and how it made him think he was useless at maths when he was really young. I hardly used numbers when I did my maths degree.

While there’s a huge need for good numeracy, and times tables are especially useful for those who struggle with maths, when it’s made out that this sort of memorization is essential it distorts what maths is and will shut some kids out of maths that they’re very capable of.

It’s like insisting that you have to be able to run fast to be good at sport.

We had to do 50 mental arithmetic questions (random questions not just times tables) as quickly as possible when I was in Y4 circa 1998. I remember having to stand up in assembly as the only one who did it in less than 3 minutes. Mortifying flashbulb memory. Fairly rough school and it didn’t exactly make people want to befriend you! I’d just moved from America and there they were much more focused on privately praising you and pushing you forward (in our school anyway) rather than telling the whole school. I was really shy so much preferred it that way, it actually put me off
trying so hard in those tests…

Think just trying to beat your own time each week is much better than setting a time they ‘should’ be able to do it in, even if the teachers know what that is.

"It’s important to both be able to rattle off times tables AND understand how they are calculated"

I don't agree with this.

It helps but it's not the end of the world for you in maths if you can't do this

I’m in my 50s and I remember having to do that as a child. We had to take the test every week until we passed. It is entirely possible.

You have to have them memorized very well so that you are just writing them down and not thinking about them. At that time it was in a grid, so you could see the pattern as you were working, which also made it easier.

I think this type of test is awful and so out dated. It rewards only those who are very good at memorising things and puts problem solving and understanding how the mechanism or action works entirely out of the question.

It also fails those who might have slower reflexes, which is mostly unrelated to somebodies intelligence.

It is a specific test for a specific thing, similarly to the y1 phonics test. A useful building block.

I think it is important / helpful that those who do have the ability to learn their times tables well, do so. It shouldn't be used to beat with a stick those that can't.

Simplifying fractions, factorising quadratics, finding HCF/LCM etc are all easier if you know your times tables well.

I didn't learn times tables by rote, in fact I feel like we spent very little time on them at all. And it really shows, I just did those questions you posted op and it took me 9 minutes and 40 seconds 😬 I had to stop and work out at least half of them and it probably took me 10+ seconds in some cases

Also I had no idea they were timed for the test, my daughter is in year 4 and there's absolutely no chance she'd be able to do this!

I did them in 4 minutes 21 seconds.

I'm pretty good on my times tables, I was one of the annoyingly good at maths children and as adult I'm an accountant and spend a decent chunk of my time doing mental maths to sense check things.

I still have to think a little for a few (7*8 always gets me). I reckon I could get that down by 30 seconds if I really practiced but I don't think I could get it down to 3 minutes.

I loathe pointless tests but I do think it’s worthwhile learning times tables and the test is the only reason they’re practicing so much. They’re learnt by repetition so the practice is a positive thing. The actual test is irrelevant.

This is true! I asked my 9 year old (who uses ttrs at least once a week) to add a couple of numbers together the other day and his brain immediately multiplied them 😂

I tried it and got a similar time as you (7x8 is my nemesis too, as is just about anything in the 12x table. They just don’t stick for some reason!) but got an A* in GCSE and A in AS Level maths.
I would encourage him to keep practising but don’t stress the time issue, as long as the majority are immediate and he can work the rest out, it’s not the end of the world.

My DD was Y4 last year and this is exactly what they did - only they got 10 seconds less to do the test in every couple of weeks or so. It was fine, I think most of them could do it in the end - they were all regularly moving up the challenges (once they complete it they just get given a new test with harder sums). They are still doing it in Y5, she is now on one that is double digits x double digits but has been stuck on that one for ages. TTRS does help if you don't have a child that gets super stressed by the timer or is insistent on being the fastest and thus wants to spend hours on it.

I honestly thought it was loads of time. Then I did it.

I love maths and it still took me 2 mins 18 seconds and that was at full speed. I suspect that's quicker than a child only learning their tables.

It's challenging but possible.

You can try it (or he can practise it) on sporcle. Also random mumsnetters who are interested could have a go:
https://www.sporcle.com/games/g/multiplication_table

I did it in 2 Min 40 Secs. I struggled with the 12 times table. That one has never really stuck.

I think it was Gove's fault.

Michael Gove brings back 12 times tables in new curriculum ... 8 Jul 2013 ... At present, pupils have to learn times tables up to 10 by the age of 11, but Mr Gove wants them to learn multiplication sums up to 12 by heart ... * *

Why he wanted to do this is maybe moot. But what other reason than foolishness could there be?

Just tried it and took 93 seconds and been many year's since I was at school. We had to memorise our tables and it obviously stuck.

I’ve never seen the point in going past 10x10 (or anything x10) 12x was useful when we had £sd, arguably also 14x and 16x. But 11x is just nice as an oddity, very rarely useful. Career mathematician here.

How many others in the class have done it? Can the teacher do it lol.

Maybe we should use Base 12?

There's some sense to it. It was much easier dividing by 3 and 4 in £sd than it is in decimal money. I think the Phoenicians used to count in 60s, which is why we still have 60 secs to the minute, 360 degrees to the circle etc.

I've got 4 older children who all had to do that or similar. They also had Timetables Rockstars. 2 of my kids found it incredibly easy as the times tables were rooted in their head. My other one had to practise a lot to master it and honestly it does help her a lot. The 4th none never could and I don't blame her! It can be quite tricky

Speed of times tables recall has been found to have an impact in maths at GCSE level. There is a paper, I'll see if I can find it. This is why there is such a focus on it earlier on. In all maths assessments from KS2 SATs to GCSEs, a child is severely hampered if they have to constantly waste time working out times tables answers. It reduces the processing time needed for the more complicated parts of the reasoning. This reduces their chances of passing.

Found it!

https://www.cambridgemaths.org/images/espresso11learninganddassessingtimess_tables.pdf