17 year old - should we give him money?

[spongecanary]

It's a bit of a long one but I just can't decide whether we are being unreasonable or not.

We don't give our 17 old pocket money as he doesn't help out around the house, we have had lengthy conversations explaining all the responsibilities of a household and asked him to just help out with something every day, ranging from feeding the fish to putting the bins out, but he just can't be bothered. We tried GoHenry a couple of years ago with good opportunities to earn money but he wasn't interested. He had a job in the summer and we advised him to save up for when the job ended but of course he didn't listen.
He has now changed colleges and we have said he has to pay for the bus himself. It's a bit of a long walk but it is walking distance and not much further than his old school which he used to walk to every day. He doesn't want to walk and I don't know if we are being unreasonable expecting him to pay for the bus if he wants to get it.

We put him on our insurance to try and teach him to drive but he wasn't interested as it's too much effort. This puts me off giving him lifts as he has had the opportunity to learn to drive.

He is making minimal effort to get a job. We are reluctant to start giving him money now as I don't want him to learn that he can just get handouts if he doesn't bother doing anything, we really want to instill a good work ethic in him but it's really hard.

I think if he was to make an effort in looking for a job, make an effort at college (third time sitting GCSEs and he is doing no more work than the first two times), help out around the house (even if I do persuade him to do something it's always half arsed so I have to redo it), put the effort in to learn to drive, I might feel differently but I am really reluctant to enable his laziness by giving him money every week.

Are we being unreasonable?

After reading the most recent updates
-fatigued by school day so unable to do homework
-poor impulse control
-screens regulate emotions

There may be an undiagnosed learning disability going on. Dyslexics and ADHD people are often called lazy….

I agree with your opinion but I think the time to get strict was much earlier. You've let him get away with not doing chores for far too long. Perhaps the army will be the making of him because they simply won't take his shit there. I know what I'd do but I don't think you would be that inclined to do that so I'd stick to your guns for now. He doesn't do chores so doesn't get any pocket money. He has to walk if he can't afford bus fare.You can't wipe their arses forever, you sound like a supportive parent, hence the thread but you can't sit the GCSEs for him. Some kids need to fall on their faces before they learn to stand up on their own two feet. Of course as a parent we want to step in and stop them learning the hard way but if that was going to work for your boy it would have already. I'd also be having another conversation with your partner because to put on a united front you need to be on the same page.

I don't think ingrained laziness is a valuable trait in an army recruit tbh.

@spongecanary I wouldn't give him a penny and I'd stop paying for his phone too.

I question your idea about this being generational: I lead a team of 120 volunteers each summer.

this year it included 20 16-19 year olds.
almost all of them worked incredibly hard, were focused and followed instruction.

one gave the experience the following review
“ I have never been so exhausted in my whole life, it was brilliant”

I'm sorry but I absolutely disagree with this. He actually had a part time job last year so this was not his first time of learning how to budget. We have also given him money when he was younger, again not the first time he has had money.

Sorry that we tried to save him thousands of pounds in driving lessons, I wish my parents had done that for me. I went through the same steps that my driving instructor did with me so it's not "lol most people need actual lessons" , a lot of people are taught by their parents.

And it is a case of putting effort it, it's not just his GCSEs, it's every aspect of his life, he does a half arsed attempt to do it as quickly as possible because he can't be bothered.

I wonder how has been raised up to that point

I do NOT want to get to this stage, but I can't see him suddenly waking up at 18 and having a different attitude 😕

I don't think you're being unreasonable. He's nearly an adult and needs to learn responsibility. You won't be helping him by enabling his lazy lifestyle. You sound like you've got the right idea forcing his hand.

If he doesn't need gcse's to join up i can see why he isn't bothered. There's no motivation to do it. I wonder if he can do them when he is in the army? Hard though if that doesn't work out. I feel for you. I hate to say this -don't jump on me - does he have adhd? My son never worked hard but was bright enough to achieve A levels without. Got to uni and he was diagnosed. Came out with a first this year.

I have seen some of the mocks he has done

Well then why hasn’t he got a 5? If he’s never done any homework or revision (it doesn’t sound like a new thing) but his teachers still thought he was capable of passing, he should’ve at least passed his English GCSE.

Does he manage his exam time properly, allow the right amount of time for each section and finish all the questions?

My point still stands since he has not had regular weekly pocket money from primary age that isn’t linked to doing chores.

What do you mean save him thousands of pounds in driving lessons? As you weren’t paying, you didn’t give him the opportunity to learn how to drive. Most parents cannot teach a kid to the level to pass the driving test.

I can see you are 100% convinced your child is lazy and always has been. This is very sad to read. It’s not generational. You’ve not raised him to be lazy. So by the process of elimination, there is likely a learning disability that is limiting his ability to pass GCSEs, to manage money, and so on.

Sounds like he’s disengaged with academic education. Same happened to my eldest who moved away, got a job and is very happy. The Army could be the making of your ds.

I can see you are 100% convinced your child is lazy and always has been. This is very sad to read. It’s not generational. You’ve not raised him to be lazy. So by the process of elimination, there is likely a learning disability that is limiting his ability to pass GCSEs, to manage money, and so on.

This rings true.

He can do his GCSEs in the army and I think he would be better to try that tbh. I might get him to go up to the armed forces careers office and see if that gets him motivated. I do realise that if he's not enjoying college or can't find a job he wants to do that he won't be motivated to do it, but unfortunately in life we often have to do things we don't want to do.
And no he doesn't have ADHD. Well done to your son for achieving what he has despite his diagnosis.

You should be paying for bus fares and lunch. He shouldn't earn that through chores.

I would give him the money for the bus to support his education. I know that parenting a teenager is so hard and stressful. The bottom line is that you can’t make a 17 year old do anything that they don’t want to, just be as supportive as possible so I would pay for the bus. Appreciate the small things, at least he wants to go to school/college.

You say he doesn't have ADHD, but how do you know? Do you not realize that just about everything you've mentioned is a trait/output of a symptom, its literally a tick box of ADD signs it really is.
However if he is serious about joining up don't bother looking into it (although expect you wouldn't, easier to think of him as lazy and disengaged) because it is often a bar to joining.

Can he join Army cadets? (You could offer him pocket money for that)
You may find that other adults in that setting would get better results from him.
The discipline would certainly help the laziness.

I know you've said he doesn't have ADHD but he does sound like he has a lot of overlapping traits with people with inattentive ADHD or what used to be called ADD. These are more stereotyped to girls and boys are thought of as hyperactive so it's not always as obvious as hyperactive ADHD. Before I saw this comment that was my immediate thoughts.
Whatever is going on this isn't 'typical' behaviour and I would encourage to explore more why, whether that's trying to speak directly to him or encouraging him to speak to a counsellor at college if they have them.

In your situation no, I'd not give him money. If he had to get the bus as the only way to get there then yes, I'd expect the parent to pay. I'd provide lunch foods he can take from home but not buy out.

However, I would probably give bus fare on bad weather days, depending on the length of the walk.

You need to move to the middle of nowhere like me - my 17yos were desperate to drive lol.

2 separate issues.

He absolutely should be doing chores. No negotiation on this. My children have done age appropriate chores since they were 7/8. But equally this is partly on you as parents for allowing it to get as far as it has.

You absolutely should be funding his bus fares to get to a place of education. That’s part of parenting a child who is still a child of compulsory education age.

It sounds like you had quite a rough start to life if you were required to be so independent so early. If he has your support he'll be able to have a much softer launch into adult life. I think a bit of pocket money for a child who is still at school is neither here nor there and can't see why you're being so inflexible about it. My parents didn't expect me to do specific chores and I had an allowance at 17 but managed to become a functional member of society. I don't think paying children for chores has any link to how well they will do in the future.

Which GCSEs is he resitting? It must be dispiriting failing exams again and again even if you don't think he's depressed. What is he studying at college? I think you need to think about how to engage him with college and if he's not engaged encourage him to find a job. Education is not for everyone and if he's not engaged and being forced to resit exams again and again that like flogging a dead horse. You're not going to get a different result. Let it go and help him feel like he can make his own decisions about what he does with his life. If he's 17 he could join the army now. It might be the making of him. And if it's not support him to try something else. Just because you had a shitty young adulthood without parental support does not mean he has to go through it as well.

I’d encourage him to join up now if being at college this year is not likely to result in any actual qualifications. The army will not tolerate a single second of his bad attitude and if he does frame himself then there are lots of opportunities to learn a trade. I’d really encourage him to look at roles that have transferable skills to civvy life though, there is a big problem with soldiers becoming homeless because they are institutionalised and struggle once they leave if they can’t transfer their trade to a job outside the Army. He would still have to learn budgeting and looking after himself but it might allow him a few years to grow up.
As far as what is reasonable to pay my oldest is 18 and in sixth form - we pay for lunch and half his transport (he runs a car) and he has a part-time job that funds his half and his fun money. If you think your son should be walking and taking pack lunch I’d give him enough for bus fare and whatever you’d spend on a week of lunches and he can choose to walk and save the cash or take the bus and spend it, buy ingredients and take pack lunch or eat at college but not have enough money to eat well for the week. What have you said to him about future support? I think you need to be clear that once he finishes college/reaches 18 he needs to be a self-supporting adult and that he joins the army/gets a job and moves out/if he lives at home he needs to pay x amount. There’s a risk he just ends up doing nothing useful.

Sorry but nowhere did I say I had a shitty young adulthood without parental support. Circumstances meant we were almost homeless so we all had to step up. I don't begrudge that.

And I absolutely agree with you, college isn't for him, he doesn't enjoy being in a classroom and I have tried to encourage him to either get an apprenticeship or apply to the army. I almost feel that despite not enjoying college, he thinks of it as the easier option rather than working full time.

How far in miles is the walk to college and is it particularly hilly or through a not great area? I wouldn't want to pay bus fares unnecessarily but it does depend how far the walk is and what that the weather is like generally wherever you are. Is buying lunch vs packed lunch doable within family finances? If you can't afford the option then there's no choice to be made. Both the lunches and the bus are things which could be some of the time rather than all of the time. If giving lunch money I would limit the amount to a reasonable amount of food only -I know kids like to buy drinks out but that really is a level of spending which can be classed as luxury.

When you say he has failed his GCSE's twice already - has he literally got none or grades 3 and below? What's he doing at the moment in terms of GCSE's and other studies?

As someone above says I wouldn't rule out ADHD unless he's actually been tested previously- there are quite a number of things you mention which point to the possibility.

Have you established if he's someone who just likes to be at home? It can look like all they want to do is game and that's at home so the desire to be at home can seem secondary but some people are genuinely just happier at home.

In the history of time loads of people have been written off as 'just lazy' when it's not necessarily the case so I would be looking back over the years at home and school to see if anything has been missed in your shoes. Once he turns 18 there's very little you can do to be involved so use the time you've got now while you still can.