Top Unis - am I missing something?

[OnTheRoll]

DD is in Year 13, predicted 3 A, already has an A from a language A Level she did last year, and 11 GCSEs all 8/9. Got a great work experience in her chosen field, lots of academic reading, etc., etc. Has been working very hard and aiming for a top uni.

The problem is, it seems that unless she gets into Oxbridge, there isn't a suitable option for her?

We are in SE so decided not to go for Durham/Edinburg as the travel is just too much, 5+ hours, and she would not be able to come home more than once a term. She would very much prefer a campus experience rather than a city uni which rules out LSE/UCL in London.

There are of course great options like Warwick, Bristol, Bath, Exeter. We visited and DD loved them and so did I.

But I cannot help thinking that if she were to go to one of those unis she didn't really need to spend that much time working, studying and sacrificing her free time. Does it make sense? Entry requirements in those unis in her subject are all quite lower than her current and predicted grades.

Would appreciate some perspective.

Loughborough requires 3 A* for some subjects and comes out top in a lot of Uni tables.What is your problem with it?

All the Russell Groups ask for the same grades as Oxbridge anyway, Oxbridge aren't higher. But definitely do your homework and look around the ones offering the degree content and delivery the YP wants, you will get a feel what is right, and it's about the course they want to do, so different at every single Uni. Do they get a choice of modules, is it assessment or exam only. Consider cost of accommodation and availability. My dd turned down her offer of Cambridge as on further consideration her course looked restrictive and quite boring, she has never regretted it and more than happy at her RG Uni with same grades

No uni requires 4 A levels …all are 3….even Oxbridge.

Most top 6th form colleges only allow u to take 3 (as 4 is pointless). Achieving A ‘s in all doesn’t mean you are Oxbridge material. It’s all about quotas too. If you are at a top performing 6th form where most students get A then you stand less chance…they can’t take all students from one place now. This was to stop only public schools getting to Oxbridge. They want more diversity and equality. If you are the top performing student in a poor performing school you stand a lot more chance of getting in to Oxford or Cambridge with your 3 A*’s.

Please Stop calling in Edinburg OP! Nobody else is and it’s driving me nuts reading this thread. Once is a typo, this number of errors is very ‘the world is build around London attitude’ It’s Scotlands capital city! Sounds like you have ruled it out along with others outwith oxbridge just by your disinterest.

As a retired professor from the US, I would ask what career path is she wanting? Does she have a joy for learning?
I would never discount having an avid intellectual base. It will do her well regardless of what she studies

Oxbridge look for a certain way of thinking in a student as well as great grades. Has she had any Oxbridge interview training from school? Has she read any of the books that tell you how to approach an Oxbridge application. My son read ‘Tell me about a Banana’ which is probably hopelessly out-of-date now. He also has a quirky (nerdy?) personality. There’s also techniques for getting in, like applying for a really unpopular subject and then requesting to transfer once you’ve got there. I loved his experience of him being there like dinner in hall, matriculation and graduation in Latin, but it’s a certain kind of experience, which she would need to love too!! I would have thought the social life is trendier/livier at some of the other Russell Group universities. And not all courses at Oxbridge are rated the best in the country either. And the terms are strictly 8 weeks - very short indeed!
Sounds like whatever she does she will ‘fly’. Congratulations!

It comes very high up the rankings for politics, has a lovely campus and is not too far a journey from the SE. It attracts A* students.

In other words, it ticks all OP's boxes. What's the issue with it?
(and no, you don't have to do sport to go there).

@redskydarknight LadyGabriella has some very odd, goady and outdated views about higher education. I have read her bonkers opinions on other HE threads. Ignore her.

Another thing - Oxbridge can be a disconcerting experience for people who have flown through at school and are used to being top. Inevitably there are lots of people who are far brainier than you. I’ve known a few people that have stumbled a bit in that atmosphere.

I went to school overseas, so difficult to convert to A levels, but graduated top of my class with A*AA in the subjects most relevant to my degree. I ended up choosing a non-Russell Group uni where the entry requirement is BBC. I loved my time at university and never felt like it was below me or that my time studying for school exams had been wasted. I did well enough in my degree to ultimately do a PhD at one of the Russell Group universities you mentioned as being too far north, and got a job there.

What comes through in your opening post is that your DD's learning is very much framed in instrumental terms: you study/try to achieve certain grades just so you can go to X uni, rather than because acquiring knowledge is valuable in its own right, or because it feels nice to be good at something regardless of where it gets you. I hope that at some point you both appreciate her efforts and the knowledge she has gained in the process regardless of where she ends up.

I would dispute your statement that no one needs 4 A levels.

Many degrees in the field of STEM require extremely strong mathematical ability and the best way to demonstrate that to for the purpose of securing a place on a course is to take Further Maths A level.
I'm not sure schools allow pupils to sit Further Maths without also sitting Maths but some Unis don't necessarily consider the Maths+Further Maths+1 Science A level combination to be enough evidence of ability to cope with a rigorous academic workload as Maths+ 2 non-maths A levels.
This is why the 4 A levels thing is so common for STEM course hopefuls who end up taking 2 A levels in addition to Maths+Further Maths in order to maximise their chances of gaining a place on the course they want.

Very able maths students will admit that Maths+Further Maths isn't as onerous a workload combination as say History+English or German+Economics, hence it's more manageable.

Not just Oxbridge . When you go to many top universities there will be someone brainier than you.

I think that some have very little knowledge about what the term RG entails because they haven’t done the basic research

Posters always delight in saying this on these threads, and if you’ve been at a non-selective with a wide attainment level that may be true. But for students at superselectives whether state or private - if they topped the class there they won’t find the standards at Oxbridge materially different.

Oxbridge is much mythologised which I don’t think does anyone any favours. The majority of students are normal, hardworking but unspectacular who will come out with a 2.1. And may well have got a 2.1 at an RG.

That's a rather sneery post.

The same could be true of any student used to being top of the class then meeting other students of equal or superior intelligence/attainment at any good university.

What kind of school did your DC go to?

I find that the ones that find Oxbridge ‘easier’ are the ones that went to a non-selective with a wide attainment level. I think research, from a few years ago, backs that up too.

I find that the ones that find Oxbridge ‘easier’ are the ones that went to a non-selective with a wide attainment level. I think research, from a few years ago, backs that up too.

I don't know how true this is, but I have also read somewhere that students from schools where there has been a lot of hand holding (generally independent schools) tend to struggle more at university.

Absolutely true

Isnt she the poster that won't see a doctor unless they obtained their medical degree from cambridge?

I don’t take her views seriously tbh.

You need to stop thinking about ‘top’ universities and she needs to visit several to get a feel for them. The best one for her is the one that feels right and with a course she’s excited about, not the one with the highest grades needed or the best ranking. It’s very course specific, my son goes to a newer university that is the best in the country for his course. He had the grades for a higher ranking (in general) uni or RG but many students do in every uni! There’s too much snobbery and competitiveness.

If you have been at a super-selective independent (eg. London ones like St Paul's, Godolphin & Latymer, CLGS/BS etc), or a super-selective grammar. (eg, Tiffin in Kingston, QE or Latymer in North London), the pace, peer group and expectations at Oxbridge are nothing new at all - it's just more if the same old same old. The only exception to this that I've seen is in Maths (at Cambs, can't speak for Ox) - because this seems to accelerate very quickly and it's very sink or swim. I've seen someone who got an award for the top mark in the U.K. in FM, come out with a 3rd. Some people seem to peak at A-level maths and then hit a wall. In other subjects though. there are a range of modules and most people find something they are good at - or can become good at with hard work and organisation. I do think it's often initially harder for those who have been 'outliers' in non-selective schools where most pupils get average grades and they've been lauded for being 'outstanding' for years, only to find they are not really. But they soon adjust. Like anything else, the work is as hard as you want to make it, for the most part. If you're going to try to juggle the workload with a lot of other commitments, it will obviously be more challenging. But also, pressure is mitigated at Cambs (and I imagine Ox) in the sense that they never have far to travel between colleges or academic depts; colleges are catered; it's easy to 'find' /friends/clubs/activities because it's a small town and it's all just there, in a contained space. No panic about accommodation either - even if colleges can't house everyone in the grounds, they're never far away and always with other students. A lot of 'practical' pressures are taken off turn, in this sort of sense. Not many work, so they're not contending with that either. Everything is laid on and easily on hand. They just focus on the work and do their best for 8 weeks. Some find more time than others for extra stuff - it's also quite course-dependent. But anybody with some combo of As and A stars at A-level would manage absolutely fine there. There no doubt are more essays etc than at other unis, but everyone is in the same boat and they don't have experience of being at other unis to compare, so that's just the norm and they get on with it, as they do anywhere else.

Yep. My kid did that combination of maths, further maths, chemistry and physics and their Oxbridge offer was for four A-levels. They did not bother revising for just maths as it was all covered in their further maths studies. And they said they could not imagine doing their subject at university without further maths, even though it was not a maths degree.

Not unless she has 8 DC who all went to Oxbridge and has name changed.

It seems to me from OP's description of her daughter's views on her next steps that her dd is taking a very sensible approach (apart from the strange attitude to studying hard and achieving well being a waste of time 🤔).
I agree that people don't understand what an RG uni actually is, fgs do your research on that, many RG unis think it should be disbanded as a 'group'.

In amongst the usual MN wrong assumptions on here re the OP not wanting her daughter to be too far away etc. there is much good advice. It's not clear how much guidance from Year 12 and 13 the dd has had.... many schools and colleges think Oxbridge and /or RG unis are the be all and end all showing how out of date they are.
For those posters mocking tbe dd and her mum re travel distance (I have already agreed that 5+ hours is nothing for uni students) it's also worth noting tbat separation anxiety/homesickness is a recognised phenomenon in 1st year students resulting in attrition and much unhappiness, see article below if interested.
Recognising this and not dismissing it with 'your kid's an adult, cut the apron strings' type comment does no favours to anyone.

I wish your daughter well OP

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8009977/