Top Unis - am I missing something?

[OnTheRoll]

DD is in Year 13, predicted 3 A, already has an A from a language A Level she did last year, and 11 GCSEs all 8/9. Got a great work experience in her chosen field, lots of academic reading, etc., etc. Has been working very hard and aiming for a top uni.

The problem is, it seems that unless she gets into Oxbridge, there isn't a suitable option for her?

We are in SE so decided not to go for Durham/Edinburg as the travel is just too much, 5+ hours, and she would not be able to come home more than once a term. She would very much prefer a campus experience rather than a city uni which rules out LSE/UCL in London.

There are of course great options like Warwick, Bristol, Bath, Exeter. We visited and DD loved them and so did I.

But I cannot help thinking that if she were to go to one of those unis she didn't really need to spend that much time working, studying and sacrificing her free time. Does it make sense? Entry requirements in those unis in her subject are all quite lower than her current and predicted grades.

Would appreciate some perspective.

Why on earth not. They are ranked 7 and 10 currently. They are both extremely good universities.

I suspect many people commenting here are basing their knowledge on their own experiences circa 1990..

York is a nice campus uni and easy to get to on the train, not sure if their offer would be lower than Warwick for a safety bet?

It probably is.
But it wasn't the university experience I wanted. If someone's looking for a campus-focussed experience it might be perfect. There's a very diverse range of universities being mentioned in this thread, some of them are going to give students very, very different types of experience.

What a weird post.
As her parent, presumably you want her to do as well as possible?
Hopefully she is pushing herself partly because she values learning and education and wants to see what she could achieve if she worked as hard as possible.
Maybe she won't get into Oxford or Cambridge, maybe she won't need the very top grades for wherever she ends up going. But it won't have been 'wasted'. She now knows how to study hard, set goals and (maybe) achieve amongst the top students in the country - that's great.

Cambridge is a proper campus, it's got cow fields in it.
Seriously though, someone who wants a 'campus' may be even happier with a college within a town where the uni is such an integral part. I went to maybe the best campus in the U.K. (Birmingham) and I can't really see that the Cambridge environment would be inferior from that POV- the town grew around the uni, it's very different to unis which have developed within a large city.

One of my dc also has SEN and I would imagine OP would have put it in her post if it was the main factor. From my pov one of the main points of Uni is to BECOME self sufficient and live away from home, regardless of SEN or disabilities - to give them a taste of the real world and skills they need.

I think the thing you are missing is that there are plenty of students at a number of universities who were predicted and/or achieved all A stars at A level and 8/9’s at GCSE. They won’t even all be Oxbridge rejects! Have a look at the historical entry grades data on UCAS course pages and you’ll see.

If she doesn’t want to go to Edinburgh or Durham due to distance that is fine there are still plenty of options where she will do well. Oxbridge and LSE probably are a bit more prestigious but there is no guarantee even with her academic background she’ll get a place. I really don’t think future career options vary as much as people think for the top 15/20 universities.

One possible argument is the high ranking are less likely to be in clearing so better to apply now and then see if get offer. If she does go to offer day. No need to firm until June there’s still months to decide. Just because you apply doesn’t mean she needs to go.
Have you looked at finances carefully. We completely ruled London out on min loan.

@CherryKefir Oxford and Cambridge have no interest in extra curricular activities that make you rounded, they are completely open they only want 'swots"

True - even if she gets a Cambridge offer she doesn't need to accept it. My dd didn't do so till after she'd been to the offer holders event, after giving further long and careful thought about the pros and cons vs her other favourite (southampton).

Oxford and Cambridge have no interest in extra curricular activities that make you rounded, they are completely open they only want 'swots"

If by 'swots' you mean bright students with a real engagement with their subject then yes. Of course the reality is that there are plenty of well-rounded students there just that's not their selection criterion.
(It's a long time since I've heard the word 'swot'. I don't think it's due a comeback.)

In 1982 that’s what they did. Anyone who was offered a place just had to get two EEs, I.e. two A levels in order to qualify for funding. Oxford and Cambridge cared about their own entrance exams and didn’t think A levels were indicative of anything much.

in the early 1990’s the standard Oxbridge offer was AAB but EE offers were still made if the candidate really stood out.

EE offers were still being made in the late 90s.

She sounds like quite a young 17.

I think York would suit her if she can cope with that distance.

I haven't read everything, so apologies if I'm duplicating things. A few thoughts:

If you are concerned about the educational experience, I would place more weight on things like cohort size, number and type of contacts hours, degree structure (including number of options), and the reported experiences of current students.

Entry tariff might provide some indication of the capabilities of the cohort, which may have direct and indirect effects on your daughter's learning experience. I wonder if that is part of what you're getting at in your concern about whether she'll end up at a 'top' uni? If so, I think I get your point, although as noted above, I'd look at the entirety of the educational provision, and at all the other things she wants to get from uni (a nice campus, vibrant campus life, good options for accommodation, etc).

I would definitely not choose a course with a high tariff as some sort of signal that your daughter is smart or 'good enough' to be there. Her A levels and brightness will speak for themselves.

Finally, students at Oxford and Cambridge have a great time, but the tutorial system (and in particular the requirement to submit written work for each tutorial) means that students need to be self-motivated and have consistent work patterns. If your daughter really feels like she wants to take her foot off the accelerator at university, then Oxbridge is probably not a good choice. But there's lots of great stuff to do, and the bonds the students develop are amazing - including that the College environment means they have friends in numerous other courses, not just their own.

OP at the risk of repeating what others have said I just wanted to make a few points.

Stop getting hung up on the 4A stars - I'm not aware of any English university which sets 4 A levels as an entry requirement. Most will say XXX or 160 points from 3 A levels or equivalent.

If your daughter has done 4 A levels purely in pursuit of a uni place then she has been poorly advised. If she has done 4 A levels for her own satisfaction and love of learning then she should be very proud of that, wherever she ends up. Finding out what actually motivated her to do 4 A levels might help you unpick some of this.

I'm not sure whether your daughter is face-saving about Cambridge or whether she is genuinely worried about coping/fitting in. It reminds me of my friends son who having revived three rejections for medicine started saying that actually bio-medical science was probably what he really wanted to do anyway...until of course that final uni came up trumps and he of course went off to do medicine.

FWIW both my niece and my best friend loved their time at Cambridge - both have an almost tunnel vision approach to everything and I can see that for them, it was an ideal environment (although my niece found the social side a little tame, coming from a large city).

I agree, it's not your decision to make and had I tried to make such a decision for my eldest they would have kicked against it. That said, you can guide. You can give them questions to think about.

My eldest knew the area he wanted to work in and not all universities offer the degree. Like your daughter he didn't want to go too far so rejected Exeter, and anywhere in Scotland out of hand plus a few others. Rejected London for cost. He looked up the employment statistics for graduates from the remaining universities, and weighed up the placements. He wanted to go to a big city. Little by little he whittled it down to a natural shortlist - and guess what? He ended up applying to a mix of redbrick and former polys. And I'm going to really shock you now...the five he applied for had exactly the same entry requirements (which is a risk in itself because he effectively didn't have a back up but he ended up getting rejected by four anyway because it was an insanely competitive course he wanted to do).

Long way of saying, your daughter may be feeling many things, but having autonomy over her choices and knowing the choices she made were logical and were choices she was happy with will be good for her. She's in a good position. She's got an offer from a good uni in the bag and she's more than likely going to achieve the offer. She can't do anything else about Cambridge at this stage. She might get an offer, she might not. I tend to think if she gets an offer you'll see whether this "inferiority complex" is real or was to save face. If she gets an offer and still has these reservations, then listen to her and be very careful with what you project on to her. She's a young adult, she's the one who'll be studying there, she's the one who'll be paying for it etc. Your role is to help her weigh things up while being crystal clear you will support her choices.

I suspect the dc may have done language A level in a language from her heritage a year early? So is only doing 3 A levels yr 13. Some universities only consider A levels sat at same time.
Has she looked at clubs and societies? Some may offer more options or more events that would appeal.

Hi again OP,

I think for Politics (based on what you've said) she should apply to Bath and UCL or LSE.

It doesn't matter that Bath isn't RG - it's significantly higher in the league tables than most RGs for many subjects. It's campus/ based and near to a historical town. And most Bath courses offer placement years or study abroad years which will be a definite benefit for her, They may well offer at lower grades than she is predicted (also they lower the offer again if she has A star or A EPQ) but this doesn't matter. It's still a top 10 (top 5 even) uni. Even Oxford and LSE offer at A,A,A for many social sciences / humanities (although realistically everybody offered will have higher, it's just to not exclude people off who have attended very poorly performing schools for contextual purposes).

LSE and UCL are both globally renowned in a way other U.K. unis are not. In the top 10 global unis, you see UCL and Imperial appear alongside Oxford and Cambs, Harvard, MIT, ETH Zurich etc. I'm not sure why LSE is never in there (maybe size)?

If it helps, UCL (like Bath) offer placement years / overseas study years. This is something she will not get at Cambridge.

LSE do not offer study abroad / placement years. Also worth remembering that LSE is a predominantly postgrad institution and about 70% of students are from overseas. But, unless things have changed in the last few years - at LSE they can choose their accommodation, whereas at UCL you get something allocated. So, if she were to live in the larger LSE-only accommodation block on the Southbank (sorry I can't remember its name - Bankside? - it's right behind the Tate Modern), she would definitely meet friends there and have lovely walk over the pedestrian bridge into uni. And LSE is basically in Covent Garden - could be worse! Every uni has its pros and cons.

If she's wondering why she pushed herself for A levels/GCSE then she should definitely think about if she really wants to go to Oxbridge - it's nothing but pushing (well depending on the subject). She should think what she wants from life and uni experience. Bristol, Exeter, Southampton are great unis and bring a better work life balance.

Well pushing is one way of looking at it. Another is that it suits people who are super-enthusiastic about their subject, keen to learn, and enjoy the challenge of working hard. It particularly appeals to people who enjoy the close contact of the tutorial system.

Anyone who’s been at a super-selective, state or private, will be used to the workload and expectations.

From what OP has said her DD is clearly bright and hardworking. DD herself seems at once enthused by the prospect of Cambridge, while unsure if she might prefer a more relaxed pace.

As I suggested previously - a year out may clarify that for her as well as gaining some maturity and independence from her family.

My HT in the 90s said that if you went toOxford by meeting an offer of EE, they would make sure you left again pretty quickly. He was an Oxford grad and people at my school did the Oxbridge entrance every year, so I imagine he knew what he was talking about.

What course? Everything my dd wants to do requires AAB minimum anywhere half decent and more like AAA

LadyGabriella has form for giving incorrect and very outdated "advice" on these threads. I would take anything she says with a very large vat of salt.

@downwindofyou

Sociology BA - some places need more but they are Bsc which she is adamant she doesn't want.