To wonder if you are against private schools…

[Unsrr]

Why is this? As in against their existence?

I was brought up in a reasonably poor area and my education was not good. I sometimes went to the nearest private school for swimming lessons and remember being in awe of it. We have one dc now age 7 and can’t afford private but there is maybe a chance we could for secondary. I wouldn’t give it a second thought if we could make it work.

I have never felt private schools should disappear because surely that’s what we should be aspiring to? An education that is excellent (yes I know not all private schools are good and lots of state schools are better), isn’t that what we should aim for?

I feel sad that this country has now made it harder to access this education. What is the reason people are against private schools existing at all? I don’t think it can be jealousy, I think many people are genuinely opposed to it from an ideological perspective and I can’t understand it at all. Just interested really as there’s been so much talk about schools recently.

Everyone assumes that all private schools have charitable status, a fair proportion actually don’t but still provide bursaries, run events for local state schools and let them use their facilities for free. So how does that fit with what you have stated?

Of course you are correct but since when is it sensible to legislate on the assumption that the system is or ever could be perfect?

The system is so far from perfect it's ridiculous to attack the (sadly not accessible to everyone) safetynet/liferaft that some are able to access. I totally agree that no one should have to go private. This is like a situation where a city needs to be evacuated and the state efforts are failing badly but instead of doing more to increase their rescue efforts, the authorities start shooting down the helicopters that are providing an (expensive) shuttle service to evacuate those who can afford it. It's not that it isn't repugnant that the wealthy can access better options, but if the state was doing its job properly it wouldn't be necessary and bombing the alternative isn't going to make things better for anyone.

YABU to say "two tiers" given that the state system contains more than seven tiers:

• Grammars
• Leafy suburb comps with a privileged and wealthy catchment area
• Specialist academies that are allowed to select on the basis of eg musical aptitude
• Schools that select on religious observance
• "ordinary" comprehensives with a genuinely diverse intake
• "grim area" comprehensives with excessive proportions of highly disadvantaged pupils due to the demographic profile of their catchment
• "secondary modern" places that are inaccurately called comprehensive but are in areas where the able pupils are in a grammar so they don't have enough critical mass of able pupils to offer a genuinely comprehensive education.

Given the huge differences between the best and worst if these tiers when huge numbers can't access a place in the acceptable options, the existence of private schools is not the only or main cause of inequality in educational opportunities.

Sums it up.

What do you propose should be done about the fact that the vast majority can't afford to move into the catchment areas of a well-performing state school?

Same question to @housemaus .

Can’t you just read the million other threads on this OP.

AIBU is going to get rebranding to the private school debate if this goes on much longer.

In my view, the problem with being ideologically driven is that nuance and what's the best thing for an individual are often left by the wayside, in service to an idea.

Surely everything is predicated on the family and parents you are born to and that is purely chance. No-one chooses this.

I would have no objection to VAT on private school fees if all private enterprises in education were treated in the same way; meaning everything that was privately supplied attracted VAT. This would include private nurseries, universities and Academies.
Additionally I would also want to see VAT on private health-care, as this also allows the rich to access better care and queue jump.

If private schools eliminated … those who could afford would hire tutors to strive to improve results on entry or whatever exams.

Like families do in Finland, they pay Private tutors to improve results for highly competitive further education exams.

The money Finns are not paying in private school tuition, they are paying to private tutors.

Of the 6% quoted to be privately educated, a very small fraction of the private schools are those which set up for a lifetime of privilege. These are the likes of Eton, Harrow, Winchester etc. The fees for these schools are eye-wateringly expensive (more than double the £15-20k pa you quoted) and those who are sending their children are not going to be affected by VAT. Their social circles and opportunities will remain the same. Privilege will remain untouched.

School should be like that for all children not just privileged few

I'm against having to pay, for a decent education, or for an alternative provision. All schooling should be funded by the state and the choices should be available to everyone, regardless of wealth or background.

My ethos is that it's a fundamental right for children to have equality of opportunity regardless of their parents' ability to pay.

Are you campaigning for this within the state sector given that it isn't currently the case (and Labour has not proposed any plans to abolish catchment areas, grammar schools, faith schools, other selective state schools)

This is always brought up in threads like this and it is untrue!

I've said time and again on different threads (under different usernames), that both my children went/go to grammar schools 18 years apart (so the exam has altered drastically and I am considered poor.

Neither of my children were tutored - I was a single mum on benefits with DC1 and on tax credits with DC2. I couldn't afford it. I also have no idea at all how to do the tests, so I couldn't help them either.

We live in a 100% selective county, there are no comprehensive schools.

I live in a social housing home and the nearest secondary l, if they'd failed, is shit. So they've got the opportunity they wouldn't have had if there wasn't any grammars here.

Sure there are more affluent children there, but I don't put it down purely to money, it's also the love of education and desire to achieve, that is lacking from a lot of the parents at the secondaries.

DC2 went to a primary that went into special measures whilst she was there. The school still requires improvement, several years later. The reason? Indifferent and unsupportive parents. DC2 was often chosen to sit on a table with the badly behaved, disruptive kids. I used to question the teachers and they said they may be a good influence.

They also used to get DC2 to help slower children with their work.

DC2 used to get upset when her work was written over, when others wouldn't let her get on in peace.

I won't apologise for being glad that she's not in a school with them now.

I used to agree with private schools, but honestly, the endless moaning is putting me off!

Agreed, and no I'm not bloody campaigning for anything. I have a full time job and my spare time is very precious.

How does one cause the other?

@TrumpIsACuntWaffle
@SwordToFlamethrower
@ChannelFiveDrama
Your (latest) statements are true but the reality is that a relatively small proportion of the population are lucky enough to be allocated a place at an excellent state school. There is no equality or fairness within the state systen and plenty of opportunities for the wealthy to buy advantage within the state system. I see no ethical difference between parents soending on school fees vs spending on living in a privileged catchment area or supplementing a nediocre state offering with extra tuition. There is no rationale to blame the existence of private schools for the inequalities when inequalities are baked in throughout the state system and it's not reasonable to expect parents with the means to do so to not spend their resources on improving their children's education if their state option is mediocre.

There is no other circumstance under which a parent has the option to spend their money on improving their child's life and is expected (by some) to refrain from doing so because not everyone can afford it.

@TrumpIsACuntWaffle agree, but don’t you think it’s sad to make all children have less good education rather than aspiring to make state schools like private schools? That sounds more like jealousy

Make all schools like private schools.

@TrumpIsACuntWaffle yes, so I don’t think that would start with getting rid of the good schools we do actually have!

Make all of the private schools accept any children they have space for.
Adequately fund state schools.
Make teaching attractive again so that maths and science graduates train to teach.

I have nothing against private schools and I was privately educated.

But I think the government is right to plan to charge VAT on fees and I want to see this use to improve general education for everyone.

93% of kids in England are not privately educated, so the welfare of the majority comes first.

I also find it dodgy that so many politicians were privately educated and therefore don't represent or understand the majority of the population's experience.

It’s not the school though is it its the intake. That’s the unpalatable truth and why you can’t just “make all schools like private schools” or like the better states and grammars.

Schools aren’t magic they can only deal with the raw materials that walk through the door. If you have a barrier to entry ie money or an exam you get a certain demographic. The challenging children from “unengaged with education” type families (trying to be right on here) have to go somewhere. The rest of us just don’t want those children disrupting our own children’s educations and frankly people will use any means at their disposal to ensure that doesn’t happen.

Saw friends last night he is training to be a teacher at an ok mixed state about a third of his classes are utter nightmare disruptive kids - the majority nice kids who want to learn look on in horror. A family member who teaches in a state in a deprived area says the same.

This. All day long.