To wonder if you are against private schools…

[Unsrr]

Why is this? As in against their existence?

I was brought up in a reasonably poor area and my education was not good. I sometimes went to the nearest private school for swimming lessons and remember being in awe of it. We have one dc now age 7 and can’t afford private but there is maybe a chance we could for secondary. I wouldn’t give it a second thought if we could make it work.

I have never felt private schools should disappear because surely that’s what we should be aspiring to? An education that is excellent (yes I know not all private schools are good and lots of state schools are better), isn’t that what we should aim for?

I feel sad that this country has now made it harder to access this education. What is the reason people are against private schools existing at all? I don’t think it can be jealousy, I think many people are genuinely opposed to it from an ideological perspective and I can’t understand it at all. Just interested really as there’s been so much talk about schools recently.

Probably a good idea but administrative nightmare!

Teachers are nicer to the students as the students are nicer to the teachers and the other students.

It’s not hard to ask for better behavioural standards in state schools. Just shop kids who aren’t interested in complying elsewhere. Re open pupil referral units fgs! Provide alternative accommodation for special needs children who cannot cope with the behavioural standards asked.

This is exactly my problem with state schools. I started off at a state school and quickly learned that going above and beyond, being interested and participating was not rewarded - it was seen as irritating and showing off. I remember being profoundly affected by a teacher telling me in reception that she wanted to see lots of hands go up during spelling - 'NOT yours.'

I got a scholarship to a private school and it was the complete opposite - I had been used to fading into the background and just trying to seem normal and not annoying in class. By contrast the private school had teachers who were truly enthusiastic about their subjects and encouraged and rewarded interest and achievement, and even questioning and debating them during discussions - which would never have been taken well at my first school.

It was nothing to do with meeting people or any other benefits, just the quality and attitude toward education.

I'm seeing it now with my oldest who is at our local state school. A lot of the time he comes home feeling ignored or disappointed that he worked really well and didn't get the prize that someone else got. Response from teacher was 'we're trying to focus on some of the students who need more help and we don't want to see the same faces answering questions.'

Which unfortunately points again to the more able children losing out, not being pushed, and instead indirectly receiving the message that they should be quiet and not 'show off' by doing well and being engaged.

I have posted something similar elsewhere but think it rather fits here too.

The Govt are hoping that making that school fees more expensive as well as pitting people against each other (this new mentality of you can do it and I can't and it's not fair!!) will guilt people like us who use that system into thinking it's a lost cause and then half their job in destroying the private school system is done. Thing is it's not really working cos those of us that can will just stand firm and stick together. All it will mean is that bursaries will become less acceptable, certainly to me. Why should I pay what I pay and someone else get the same for nothing?

The plan is though: make everyone angry cos someone else has something else that you don't have. Respond to a Govt rallying call that it should be made unacceptable/illegal/taboo. Don't argue so much when draconian rules governing what people can and can't do with their own cash is put in place. Everyone in servitude to their Govt masters who saved them.

It's interesting that people are rightly reprimanded for making sweeping stereotyped generalisations about private schools-but similar stereotyped generalizations about state schools are accepted without question. In particular, the one about clever children being held back "so the others don't feel bad". Why would a school that is judged on how its pupils perform do this? In my 20 years of involvement in various state schools in various roles I have NEVER seen such a thing happening.

@CurlewKate but I was one of those children held back. My 'cleverness' never recognised, in fact I was sexually assaulted by a teacher in Year 8 and then again in Year 11 and no one did anything. In 6th Form this same teacher went out with the year 12s and would boast at snogging the girls.

I applied for Oxford myself, no support from the school and interviewed myself. My parents are illiterate and I'm from an immigrant background so they had no clue. I arrived and was surrounded by private school kids, all coached to the Nth degree. I was badly let down by state education. That's why I privately educate my kids. I've now seen the difference in my professional life, but then our school is a very good independent school however there are many others better. Out of our financial reach. There will always be inequality.

In the meantime our local 'excellent' state school is bolstered by parents paying a fortune for tutors outside of school - it's semi-private!

My DC experienced this at primary, where they were exceeding expectations throughout, until SATS year, when we mentioned moving them elsewhere due to bullying and the school were suddenly keen to help and encourage them. Also in secondary, where the school’s aim is grade 5s for the statistics, and anything above that they’re not bothered about. We live in an area with poor state schools and general low achievement though, so maybe different to those that you’ve been involved with.

Having followed many of these threads, my observations are the opposite in the overwhelming majority. People are able to make all sorts of stereotyped generalisations about private school children with absolutely no consequence. Examples include snobby, spoon-fed, using perceived posh names in a derogatory way, unable to communicate with people from different backgrounds. Comments often made based on encounter of one privately educated person or knowing one family who have chosen this route.

Meanwhile should anyone make a slight comment about a disadvantage of the state sector, they are shot down in an instant. This is alongside multiple threats from teachers in the state sector posting about how dire it is with poor behaviour, unqualified staff etc etc.

The reality is there are good and bad in both sectors. Some children and schools will have traits that correlate with the stereotypes but that is not reflective of the majority. My children's current prep school does not even vaguely resemble the idea most have about private schools and the state secondary they will (likely) go to also does not at this point.

It's no just their behaviour policy. It is SO much more. The head is a mouthy cow basically who offends many people.

It is hard to generalise as there are good and bad state and private schools and why parents pay fees varies too. I have been happy to pay and at university stage (2024 is my first year not paying even for the youngest who are in first jobs (I paid university fees too).

The BBC Radio 4 Moral Maze programme on these issues sounds interesting - mentioned here - https://www.isc.co.uk/media-enquiries/news-press-releases-statements/parents-have-every-right-to-ensure-that-their-child-has-the-support-they-need-says-isc-ceo/

Vehemently against. A good education is the right of every child, not a privilege.

Having a two-tiered education system perpetuates inequality.

Get rid of it and make all education state but fund it properly.

@Xenia do you have an opinion on if the ISC court case stands a chance? Dan Neidle posted on twitter that he thinks that Lord Pannick is wrong and almost every tax lawyer will agree with him that the ECHR does not stop Labour putting VAT on school fees.

Sorry, but isn’t there already a TWO Tier education system within the state sector?

Students from a very long list of state schools are eligible for Contextual Uni Offers because the school is considered …

• – if your school’s academic performance is lower than the national average

Why not tackle the bottom of state schools, the ones with academicbelow national average …

That requires a good education to be available to all.

It perpetuates inequality and upholds an unfair class system.

Lots of chatter on SM grps about a ‘protest’ in London - getting the children and parents to march in Downing Street, kids dressed in school uniform with placards declaring their future is at risk etc - and some disbelief that this is a non-issue for most people!

Can’t wait to see the kids in full private school regalia - I do hope the likes of Christs Hospital and Hill House join in - marching to save themselves against the horrors of having to attend state schools.
Nothing better to get the public in your side than a load of children in uniforms that cost as much as many families food budget for the month…

There are over 3,000 UK schools on the list having academic standards below the national average. Instead of just hire more teachers, & fix crumbling schools

goodness the teachers and crumb-fix might end up going to the above average schools!!

Why weren’t the 3,000 schools a campaign pledge?
(Yes, I understand averages … there will always be schools “below average”).

The state sector is two tier !!!

The moral maze debate was unusually poor. The exact same lazy stereotypes and arguments I've seen on here and very few references to the crux of the issue...namely, the vast underfunding of the state sector and the inability of the sector to adequately provide a safe education for kids with additional needs who do not meet the threshold for EHCPs .
I absolutely agree all kids should have the same standard of education..but let's level up, not down, to achieve that. Or would all these people with kids in great state schools with wealthy MC catchment areas be happy for them to be randomly picked to be bussed over to the "sink school" that's falling down, has no permanent science and maths specialists and gets poor results? So it's fair?

Personally, if I was in charge I would completely reorganise the state school admission system to a combination of fair banding and ballot.

Don't forget that children are liable to have different experiences even within the same school depending on what sets or streams they end up in.

What do people even mean when they say good state schools or bad state schools? The education and funding being provided are very similar. The difference is the intake which then has knock on effects to teacher retention.

You also have shadow schooling going on where students are coming home and learning from tutors in the evenings which can have a big affect on results too.

Many schools are in a position where they have angry, bored students who have no interest in the curriculum and can't understand it. Perhaps because they missed out on some basic skills/concepts earlier in school and there is no option to repeat and no resources for extra help. You just have to get on with learning 14 different subjects in KS3 when you can't add up. At gcse you know you are going to fail so what's the point.

Anyway some schools have got around this by imposing absolutely rigid discipline which is not a nice way to spend one's childhood. Not sure it encourages many soft skills either.

No.

@LiceoDolce "You just have to get on with learning 14 different subjects in KS3 when you can't add up. At gcse you know you are going to fail so what's the point."

As part of my reforms I would reintroduce the BTecs that the Right hate so much.

It is clear that the system cannot continue as it is now.

Very good education should be a basic right, and a basic tenet of a civilised society and not something you only get if you have pots of money to throw at it or battle the local education authority for a funded SEN place. It is in everyone's interests that society is well educated and that everyone is allowed to reach their potential.

My able 8 year old child said that they hadn’t learned anything new in maths for 2 years. I complained to the head who said, and I quote “with my social conscience cap on we have to focus on the weaker students”. Dragging the bright down to the weakest is certainly a thing in some Scottish state schools. There’s a reason why Scotland is plummeting down the league tables.

Solent123, I don't know human rights law so don't know if the case will be won. As it seems to be useful in all kinds of unexpected areas and Labour seems very keen on it in other contexts, may be it is useful here too.

In general terms I think we have taken human rights law far far too far. It should be about not torturing prisoners of war etc not the very mild cases where it seems to be raised left right and centre these days.