To have shouted at a stranger at the pool?

[Fullmooncomfort]

I’m still mulling this over so needed some opinions from you wise owls. The fact I’m still thinking about it makes me think I probably did the wrong thing 😖

scenario: busy pool today with Dd8 and her friend, we had just into a family cubicle to change after a nice swim. Changing rooms were busy and in high demand which is normal for weekend family swim time. We’d been in there for a couple of mins (so just at the stage I’m half dressed with dripping wet hair and the girls are wrapped up in towels slowly starting to dry off). The door to the cubicle gets banged on really loudly so I ignored it assuming someone had the wrong cubicle. However when it happened again really loudly I said “it’s occupied, won’t be too long” and the person on the other side started shouting about a jacket and rattling the door. The knocking and rattling of
the door continued and got louder and this girls started to get upset so I opened it a crack to say I think you’ve got the wrong cubicle, and a very red faced angry woman started shouting at me saying I’d taken her cubicle and stolen her daughter’s jacket 🤷‍♀️I had to speak loudly as she was literally just ranting and I said I think you have the wrong cubicle, it’s me and 2 girls and we are changing so please step away and you are welcome to come in when we are done but there’s nothing it in apart from our stuff.
She then put her hand on the door and continued to shout about a jacket, saying she needed to come in and check as I had clearly moved her clothes out of it and stolen the cubicle and jacket. I finally lost my temper and shouted back (I know that was wrong but it was awful, the girls were upset and she had her hand on the door so I couldn’t shut and lock it) and she started really yelling at me. I didn’t know what to do so asked loudly if security was around (lots of wide eyed parents standing who did nothing but not a lifeguard in sight as they were poolside and no security as they of course would normally have no reason to patrol a kids changing area)
She then screamed that I was racist and she was calling security on me for theft 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️and walked off, so I went back in to reassure the girls, having locked the door.
Next thing I know a lifeguard of about 17 who looked confused knocked on the door and said a lady had come to complain that her daughter’s expensive jacket had been stolen and I had been racist towards her. I felt really upset (I think just shock) and managed to wobble out the above story and that I was finishing getting the girls ready and we would come out and she could check it for this jacket (that clearly wasn’t in there). Then a security guard arrived so it was chaotic at this point, it all got repeated and she said she would try and find the women. She came back after a few minutes to say she’d spoken to her and told her she should have been polite and waited for us to exit before going in to check if the coat was in there, but that she had denied raising her voice and said that I had been deliberately goading and obstructive and racist. I got quite upset and said I certainly wasn’t racist or goading and while I did stop her entering the cubicle it was only because the girls were naked and we had just started getting changed. She sort of shrugged and nodded and walked off and I gathered up my things and we left. I feel awful for having lost my temper and shouted at her and for security, which scared the girls more, but I simply lost my rag after repeated attempts to ask her to wait while
we finished changing, and then she was so aggressive. I’ve had to explain to the girls what racist means and how It was nothing to do with race, but I’m mortified my DD and her friend saw me raise my voice and shout at her to move away from the civil cubicle. WWYHD in that situation? My gut tells me I handled it badly but it was all so sudden and intense and I think my fear turned into anger ☹️

What other type of changing room cubicles is there.

The people being snarky about you changing with the unrelated 8 yo are being ridiculous. As long as the child and parent is ok with it it's a non issue. The alternative would be sending her in on her own which would not have been pleasant if this 'lady' was knocking on her door. Imagine that as a child. Naked, vulnerable and a crazy shouting lady shouting at you

She sounded absolutely insane and lucky you didn’t tell her to eff off.

Yes actually. I have witnessed it many times and had it thrown at me a few times in situations where race had absolutely nothing to do with the situation. The person was simply in the wrong and when they realised they couldn’t “win the argument” screamed that I was a racist bitch. This was a woman who nearly run me over when I was on a zebra crossing 😂 and because I told her to get off her phone and pay attention to the road. She told me I was only having a go at her because she was black 🤷🏻‍♀️ I would’ve had the same reaction if it was a 6ft white bloke built like a brick shit house or a little old lady. I was fuming that I’d nearly been run over. Didn’t mention the colour of her skin once nor did it enter my mind.

I do however think there are more issues of actual racism (I’ve sadly seen plenty of those too) and that they outweigh the use of the “race card”.

And yes I’ve also seen people try to get out of situations where they are clearly in the wrong by using their mental health or other protected characteristics.

Its a shame because it makes genuine instances less beloved when people behave like this.

Just because you haven’t experienced it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Why the need for shouting at all. You could have calmly said I'll have a look for you. Or just stuck to your guns and ignored her until you'd all finished dressing.

I assume when you're half naked and feeling threatened and vulnerable, your usual reactions are somewhat affected.

Same, whether private or council.
Good luck to those who are, but not everybody feels comfortable stripping off in public.

Hi, I'm one of them and yes, I also think it's fine to use "the woman card", "the gay card", "the disabled card" as well as "the race card" and others (some of these apply to me but of course I appreciate you don't know which ones and may not believe me if I told you!)

I think where we diverge is that you take the existence of these phrases to imply that there are more cynical uses of the idea of discrimination than actual discrimination, or an absolute deluge of false claims, which I do not.

I simply think that use of a protected characteristic as a weapon in circumstances where it's completely irrelevant is an observable, repeated phenomenon to one degree or another and it is fair enough to have a phrase for that.

I think you handled this so well considering she was trying to barge into a cubicle where children were changing. And then to be falsely accused of racism because you didn’t let her just barge in? You have the patience of a saint!

Exactly I think it’s pretty well known it’s not a British thing to strip off like that. Hence why you sometimes see funny posts about people going swimming in mainland European countries and being horrified at the lack of cubicles or naked saunas etc
I can’t think of anywhere that doesn’t have cubicles! I’ve been to many pools and holiday parks, gyms etc

Oh yes and @Justyouwaitandseeagain you are so quick to berate the OP for 'not seeing it from the other woman's perspective' yet go on to tell your story with absolutely no sympathy for the man and what was happening from his perspective?..

You did read that this person continued banging the door to the cubicle with the banging getting increasingly louder and rattling the door handle, causing OP’s daughter to become upset, after OP had called out to say the cubicle was occupied? It would have been pretty obvious the cubicle was occupied and yet this person carried on acting as described.
Based on how this person was acting, I’m getting the impression they would have ended up re-enacting the “here’s Johnny” scene from The Shining if fhe OP had ignored them.

Hi OP, I swim a lot in different pools run by different providers, I also worked in a huge complex once. Also in my day job for many years now I deal with people who are irrationally angry.
I expect this lady for whatever reason left the jacket and a bunch of other personal stuff in the changing cubicle you were in or a different one who knows. Someone else stole it or moved it or a member of staff took it.
A huge amount of property is stolen in changing rooms im always amazed anyone is stupid enough to leave their stuff just laying around.
The thing is if you don't get shouted at a lot you don't know how to deal with it and can get upset. Nothing works by the way apart from letting the angry person shout it out. I do pretend to engage straightaway to deflect . So I would have pretended to search and then said its not here. No reason why you should have. Also on my own time ive been known to just be a pain back, I get paid to pretend they aren't nuts at work I don't on the weekend so I can be me.
You are only upset because you are nice. Also the racist thing is everyone's go to accusation at the moment. I've had colleagues who are black be accused of this just recently by other black people. Again don't worry about it.
I would however make a complaint about how it was handled just so the management of this pool are aware that their stupider customers are not using lockers then being disruptive and abusive about it. Also if that lifeguard left the poolside to "deal" with this they need more training.

Sorry for quoting such a massive amount - the android app won't seem to let me select what I quote.

I haven't actually said that I haven't ever experienced the thing you refer to as "the race card.". I have worked in schools for decades. Children who are in trouble with authority will sometimes resort to any possible justification/excuse to get out of their consequence. I have heard kids falsely accuse staff of racism, just as I have heard them falsely accuse staff of sexism, of simply lying about what happened, of hating them personally for some bizarre unknown reason etc etc etc.....

Obviously I fully understand that it is logically possible for someone to lie about being the victim of racism, and that that appears to be what has happened in OP's case.

What I am challenging is that:

A) it is any more common a phenomenon than any other sort of lying. If I were to accept that, I would have to accept that ethnic groups who are likely to be victims of discrimination are more dishonest than other people. . And I do not for one second accept that.

B) it is such a widespread phenomenon that we need to coin a derogatory term as verbal shorthand for the process.

My primary concern is, that once people invent a term for it and start discussing it as if it is a common issue, genuine issues of racism are missed because they are so easily dismissed as "the race card".

It's like the belief that women commonly lie about rape. Of course it is logically possible for women to lie about rape, and some women in the history of human race will have lied about rape. But once we start to talk about women "crying rape" (remember that offensive term?) as a known phenomenon, we make it less likely that women will report rape, more likely they will be disbelieved if they do, etc. And thus we endanger women.

"The race card" is no different in my opinion.

Ah see mine would be in my ordinary bag still in the locker, not in the changing cubicle. The locker isn't in the cubicle.

Op you done nothing wrong you kept your cool I don't think I would have.
I'm fed up of people flying racist sexist homophobia as an excuse for their shocking behaviour it's as though if i say this person was either of those towards me then it diminishes my bad behaviour.

I have lost it and probably whacked her one at the point she had her hand in the way or was making me feel she was threatening the safety of my own child and her friend.

My primary concern is, that once people invent a term for it and start discussing it as if it is a common issue, genuine issues of racism are missed because they are so easily dismissed as "the race card".
It's like the belief that women commonly lie about rape. Of course it is logically possible for women to lie about rape, and some women in the history of human race will have lied about rape. But once we start to talk about women "crying rape" (remember that offensive term?) as a known phenomenon, we make it less likely that women will report rape, more likely they will be disbelieved if they do, etc. And thus we endanger women.

Those are certainly legitimate concerns but again I would put the blame at the feet of those who make stuff up rather than people making reference to it.

Sometimes you can't get some people to back off unless you stand your ground, and are quite firm/shouty yourself . Particularly in a situation where you can't just walk away.

What a rude and aggressive woman, she escalated things and sounds as if she was looking for a fight and no matter what you said or did she would have been deeply unpleasant. You did nothing wrong, in fact I think you behaviour was exemplary

Just for completeness and consistency, I also think that "crying rape" is a perfectly acceptable term for someone who maliciously falsely reports being raped.

I also agree, based on statistical evidence, that false reports of rape are no higher than false reports of any other crime.

It is nonetheless a phenomenon and it is fine to have a (derogatory) term for it.

I think people who false report are beneath contempt and they are the ones who make it difficult for real victims.

I think your anger is misdirected at the easier targets of people naming the bad, harmful behaviour than those actually engaged in the bad, harmful behaviour itself, personally, but I doubt we are likely to agree!

You've literally said you've witnessed it happening at your school. That's how widespread it is. It's a widespread phenomenon.

False accusations of rape are not a widespread phenomenon so I have no idea why you are comparing the two things. How many false accusations of rape have you seen at your school?

The 'card' in general is a widespread phenomenon. There are youtube channels dedicated to calling out women who are getting attention from playing it.

Frankly I think it's good that we have this term as it needs to be called out. And you're quite clearly playing the race card.

Yes the other cards exist. The misogynist, the transphobic, the homophobic, all of these words can be used incorrectly in the same way to shut people down and to get their own way. And all can be used correctly.

And the damage is done by people playing these cards when the situation doesn't warrant them, not by people who acknowledge that this does happen.

Two examples from my life: Toxic work environment, 4 out of 5 people quit within a month, the Indian woman used the 'race card' to avoid working her month notice while still getting paid for it, the 3 white girls had to work their notice. There was no difference in toxic treatment based on skin colour.

I was in Spain and didn't want a fortune teller to read my palm on the street and she accused me of being racist.

The problem is not with people using the phrase 'race card' it's with people using the card and making actual accusations of racism seem less serious because of the self serving fake accusations. The people getting harmed here are the actual victims. And they are getting harmed by the fakers, not those who understand that they exist.

Well the best example I can give was at a footie match and one of the kids wasn’t registered to play but apparently was their star player. So he was told he couldn’t play in the cup final. I include race here as it’s relevant. The boy was black and so the black mother stormed the pitch and started yelling and screaming at our coach being racist. He said ‘sister, look at my skin you can’t play the race card when I am black too”.

Anyway, you did absolutely nothing wrong and reacted to an overly aggressive person by alerting someone before it escalated.

What does annoy me and I see it ALL THE TIME is that no one helps or gets involved. Everyone just stands there like a lemming. Yeah I know don’t put yourself in danger etc, but I’m disappointed no one said anything to help.

I think it's really weird to think this. If you invite another child to go swimming with yours, you have a duty of care towards them. It would be grossly irresponsible to leave them to change on their own outside the cubicle. The alternative would presumably be for all three to change in the public changing area, and I can't see how that's an improvement. You can all politely turn your backs on each other within the cubicle.

Your kids saw you stoop to the same level as the woman who bothered you - and, from your description, even lower.

There are things that don't quite add up in your post. You say that you shouted at her and that after that she started really yelling, which makes it sound as though you escalated the screaming match, although you also say that she was shouting from the get-go, so which is it? When you say "loud" knocking on the door, well, all knocking is "loud" isn't it? It would have to be loud to be heard in a busy changing room, but you have written it as though the woman was aggressive from the get go.

Also, you write that she she accused you of clearing her effects out so that you could have the changing room AND of stealing them. Which was it, OP? Did she really say both? If so, she was making no sense.

A mother comes looking for her child's jacket and you react with "Fear" that turns into "anger" or rather rage. The woman is in your perception "aggressive" (you know that accusation gets hurled at black women all the time, don't you? Even the most mild mannered black woman can be perceived as a "threat" - I don't know if the other woman was "black" because you haven't said.)

Your gut is telling you that something was amiss with your reaction and, no matter how others on here will tell you differently I would urge you to listen to that. I would also urge you to be very honest with yourself about how it all played out and whether you were in fact the polite person you are trying to tell us that you are from the start because to me it really doesn't read that way. I would have told the woman that I've had a look and that I couldn't see a jacket and to ask security as they may have picked it up.

Stepping aside from the other woman's reactions for a minute (she no doubt would have another story to tell. Of course she would) this is about how you behaved and the kind of behaviour you want to model for your children.

Looking at yourself isn't about beating yourself up. It's just about calmly having a look and wondering if you could have done things differently. The people on here telling you that you behaved well aren't necessarily that helpful.

Please explain how on earth the poster would have known anything about her race behind a door. The woman was banging and yelling at OP from the other side of the door.

You want to make this about race and clearly the woman was just being ridiculous.