To think the system’s set up so the rich get richer and the poor get screwed?

[ThatGreenBear]

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how society is structured, and it feels like no matter how hard some people work, they’re always struggling, while others just seem to get wealthier with minimal effort. Whether it’s the tax system, housing market, or even access to education and opportunities, everything seems stacked in favor of those who already have money and power.

AIBU to think that the system is rigged to keep the wealthy at the top while making it incredibly hard for the rest of us to get ahead? Or is this just how life works and we should all just accept it? I’d love to hear others’ thoughts on whether the playing field is as unfair as it seems, or if it’s possible for anyone to get ahead with enough hard work.

Big differences of wealth and lifestyle may well be the result of capitalism but in this Western European world we are seldom penalised for being the wrong sort of person. Whereas in much of Africa and Middle East education is very difficult for some tribes/clans/religions to access. Similarly jobs in Government Service can also restricted.

Living Standards, health care leading to life expectancy have all improved since 1940. Each generation is better off than their parents. It is a pity that we are suffering a downward blip at this moment in some areas.

Which is why monopoly isn’t remotely analogous...

if everyone is given the same - some people will win more than others. Because they’re more confident / more driven / smarter strategists. Thus it will always be. People who work harder deserve to be paid more

the problem is that it isn’t at all like monopoly. That some people do start with Mayfair.

Yep - this is slightly outing, but my husband was recently commissioned to do a piece of consumer research for the private banking arm of a high street branch. Which basically meant asking high net worth individuals (actual HNW, not comfortable middle class) how they made their money.

None of them started off poor, or even MC. Most were the children of people who had launched successful businesses 50-80 years ago (all kinds of random things - haulage companies, stapler factories, importers of agricultural tools, and in unglamorous bits of the UK).

These dads (and it was all dads) then gave all their sons (and it was all sons) 1-2 day per week non-jobs as chief director of fuck all in their company, on high six figure salaries straight after university, with competent, experienced people under them to actually run the company for them.

Obviously this was a snapshot, but it was notable enough for DH to remark on it.

It’s also noticeable on the “how did you get rich” threads on here that there are lots of people who live on passive income from inheritances or investments (which obviously requires significant capital to invest in the first place).

There’s no problem with either of those two scenarios, but it isn’t working hard for a living.

Informing pupils in First years of secondary about unis - I spose schools would be accused of brainwashing -but tell them who gets grants, how much different jobs earn,how long they would have to study,get some previous pupils in to talk about their choices. Also apprenticeships etc. Things change, you can’t expect all parents to be up to speed.

Sounds like a load of made up nonsense. No bank seriously dealing with HNWI would do such a survey. I can’t believe any HNWI would answer it either. That said, the results sound quite Boaty McBoatface 😂 so maybe your DH (husband? no-one says that on here) did apparently waste his time.

Each generation is better off than their parents.

This is actually not true of late-stage capitalism countries in the 'West', specifically UK and US (I know less about Europe).

In the seventies, a working-class man (usually a man) could support a wife and children on his single wage/salary, pay his rent comfortably, often run a car, and afford a modest two-week holiday each year. On ONE wage.

Now, a family, or even a childless couple, struggle to keep a roof over their heads on two wages.

Yes we have better computers and phones, but we are not 'better off' than previous generations, particularly from about the late fifties to early seventies.

The reason is partly the oil situation, and partly that capitalism has run wild since the Reagan/Thatcher years, with more and more wealth being sucked up to the top with every year that passes.

You may hate the rich but they pay far more tax than anyone else.

@EuclidianGeometryFan Random comments. Yes and No. Yes during that 20/30 year period one wage was sufficient for a simple family life. (I was there). There was a difference in housing quality. My parents lived in a house like Coronation Street. Damp and simple electrics. My uncle lived in a more modern house that he could afford because he worked in a car factory. With overtime I guess his wages were x2 my Dad's.
Those better equipped houses had to be financed. Part of our street was demolished under slum clearance policy. Schools were built to higher standards and school leaving age changed from 14 during WW2 to 15 in 1950s then to 16.
We had to replace much of railways and roads.
We were paying huge amounts in interest to USA banks for WW2 loans. Final payment was this century.

Those changes needed money from somewhere.

@EuclidianGeometryFan Not us. I was brought up in the 50s with a SAHM, just my dad working, in rented housing. My DC were born early 70s, and for a few years we managed on DH’s income, but it was a fairly basic lifestyle. In order to move to a reasonable house, I worked too. The first thing I bought when I got a permanent job was an automatic washing machine! Oh, the luxury.

We used DH’s van as our only mode of transport for years. People are used to so much more now as the norm, working couples ‘need’ two cars. Holidays are more of an expectation (we visited family in our home town). Unemployment in many Northern areas rose during the 80s, and we faced huge mortgage interest rate increases, people lost their homes. I’m not criticising, just pointing out that having lived those years it wasn’t as comfortable for us all as may be thought.

Fairly sure the rate of Indian kids going to uni is much higher than the rate of white kids.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicgroupdifferencesinhealthemploymenteducationandhousingshowninenglandandwalescensus2021/2023-03-15#:~:text=People%20who%20identified%20as%20%E2%80%9CChinese,%2C%20Caribbean%20or%20African%E2%80%9D).

People of Indian and Chinese heritage are doing just fine.

The Indian and Chinese are two ethnic groups which prioritise education culturally, alongside a good work ethic. It is no surprise that these two groups tend over time to be successful in whichever country they immigrate to. It may not be the first generation but by the second generation, education would have given them the requisite leg up.

Not everyone can have generational or inherited wealth and for those people who do not have these natural advantages, education and hard work is the way out of poverty and is the way wealth continues to be preserved without needing too much of an element of luck.

I can see the examples of inequality cited here but that should not stop anyone trying even if they start on the backfoot. Ambition, optimism, resilience and stamina are the best gifts. Actively looking for a way out of poverty or trauma (e.g. losing a parent young) can fire up ambition whereas MC kids who have everything handed to them on a platter can fritter away their advantages. Some uber wealthy parents like Warren Buffet don't pass on all their wealth so as not to extinguish ambition in their children.

Not sure what the point I am making here except to say 'don't give up'.

I would argue that an 18-20 year old can work an awful lot more hours than 12 a week even on top of uni (some degrees like medicine excepted of course).
It’s also where the generational thing comes in. If you can’t afford to go to Uni then I would be working to ensure my kids could stay at home for a reasonable rent so they could. Then if they do the same their kids could go to a better Uni so on it goes.

But my point was many students have to work more hours just to support themselves through uni not so they can save up a deposit whilst studying. What about people who don’t live near a university, or don’t get on with their parents or whose parents can’t support them at home? There’s a whole world outside your very narrow experience…

We have both worked hard all our lives in average paid jobs ( have children too ) but our house is worth nearly 1 million. ( mortgage almost paid off )

Thats the point, housing is very out of whack vs salaries and if you are young you have missed the boat for huge equity gains.

I would agree with the OP but inheritance tax is high at 40% in this country.

We will likely be hit by IHT on both sides but I think a 1m allowance is quite generous

You may hate the rich but they pay far more tax than anyone else.

Depends on the individual

“Using anonymised data from personal tax returns, we show that in 2015-16 the average rate of tax paid by people who received one million pounds in taxable income and gains was just 35 per cent: the same as someone earning £100,000. But one in four of these paid 45 per cent – close to the top rate – whilst another quarter paid less than 30 per cent overall. One in ten paid just 11 per cent—the same as someone earning £15,000. The rich, it seems, are not all in it together.”

@EuclidianGeometryFan this is where YOU are wrong too.

I'm someone who "worked hard" from a middle class start, no capital behind me other than intellectual and cultural if you like, and made choices that had certain costs personally - to build a business from nought to selling it 30 years later for several millions.

People who build businesses don't necessarily have inherited wealth behind them - they can tho initiate the wealth their children will inherit.

What enabled me to do this?
The free education I had enjoyed from the state.
Parents who valued thoughts and ideas over buying stuff.
Vvvvv low housing costs, , lived cheap spent on childcare. Oh, and a super father for my DC who never ever complained or criticised me for working as I did.

Utter bullshit. I mean good for your son that he saved up for the nice watch, but even with that work ethic he's never going to be a billionaire because he doesn't come from wealth in the first place.

@BaMamma , he’s a doctor now with a family of his own. He didn’t chose to pursue wealth above all but again I must mention Alan Sugar who did and is now incredibly wealthy. There are many aspirations our children can have and it is our duty as parents to encourage our children to aim and fight for their dreams.Encouraging a defeatist attitude which perpetuates the lie that you are caged by your birth circumstances is wickedness which sacrifices our youth on the alter of socialist tropes.

Generational wealth is a major factor in the financial prospects of families. Good investment has a doubling time of around 8 years and this money can be passed down with good financial advice about IHT minimisation. With family money you can afford better education, unpaid internships, relevant masters etc. Also wealth tends to socially help you with connections. Then of course there is nepotism.......

University is becoming increasingly less an advantage with degrees being handed out left right and centre.Employers in my opinion are starting to lose the respect a degree should confer with the slew of graduates with a range of academic achievement now.

Work hard at school and uni, yes, but more importantly start early researching careers. Use any form of outreach program to your advantage and importantly make those contacts!

Things are the way they are because this country became pseudo socialist crony state about 25 years ago.

We no longer have capitalism and people encouraged to take risks. The corrupt and incompetent in power protect those considered to big to fail and hand out borrowed and taxed trillions to their friends like smarties.

And then throw a half chewed bone to the masses in the shape of benefits to keep them ‘happy’.

Th system stopped being truly free market and owning your own destiny about 25 years ago. Now only two types of people get on. Those who leech from the state like the unions and ‘green’ donors to Labour and the Covid fraudster friends of the previous government. And those who think it’s their entitlement to claim every benefit under the sun and have no use or purpose in life, often claiming to be too sad to work.

The ever dwindling number in the middle pay for this largesse.

The scummy ruling establishment in this country are finished. They cannot and will not stop stealing off us and should not be anywhere near power.

If hard work equated with wealth African village women would be millionaires. One reason the UK is wealthy because it extracted resources from other parts of the world that are now poor.

Fwiw the Soviet Union did offer incentives for innovation.

Yes, that is what neoliberalism is. You only have to look at the wages to housing costs for different jobs. There is no correlation between hard work and reward now. Of course the economy is an incredibly complex system for 70 million inhabitants and there is no such thing as perfection, but it has been better than this. There’s hardly even a pretence at fairness and justice any more. There have been threads on this website justifying the existence of elites and mass inheritance - and that is what Britain has gone back to now. We’ve seen it before.

What are you looking for re comments. A critique of Das Kapital?

I also think appetite for risk comes into it also.

I could be wealthier now if I had the bravery to take risks years gone by.

But I am risk averse, so I am where I am.

(Not a moan. Just an observation)

You can't look at capitalism as a purely national phenomenon anyway. The UK's wealth is built on the absolute poverty of children living in rubbish dumps in Manila and Dar Es Salaam. You can't work your way up the billionaire status from there.