AIBU to hope 'Tommy Robinson' finally faces some consequences?

[Locutus2000]

Arrested ahead of the London march.

Key instigator of the riots the other month.

I recently watched The Rise of the Nazis on BBC iPlayer. I’d do the same if I were you, firstly you will be better informed and secondly you may start feeling different politically.

@Hatfullofwillow

"Why are you assuming immigrant labour aren't skilled? It's Doctors, Engineers, Scientists, Nurses etc that are leaving the UK"

I'm not assuming that immigrant labour is unskilled- I'm assuming a mixture of skills. But using your example why not incentivise the UK Doctors, Engineers, Scientists, Nurses etc that are leaving the UK to actually stay by maybe paying them more?

The alternative is to then import skilled labour from abroad on lower salaries that UK nationals wouldn't work for.

You wanted evidence of the correlation between being out of work and ill health:

www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/work/employment-and-unemployment/how-employment-status-affects-our-health

Of course there is the chicken and egg which came first the ill health or the economic inactivity but the above article would suggest that people become unemployed often through no fault of their own and as a result suffer ill health and then become long term sick.

I think it is disgraceful that the economically inactive are being written off as unemployable as well as deeply racist to suggest that imported labour should be used to do the jobs that UK nationals are unwilling to do at current salaries. It is reminiscent of using slave labour to work in the Caribbean sugar plantations because European labour was unwilling to do so.

Unless you think that what we have now in terms of our waged economy is slave labour (fair enough if you do), then it's quite a stretch to equate our already restrictive immigration policies to the slave trade. We're not sending out ships and bringing people in forcibly.

I'm also a bit concerned that your focus on immigration is just on the non-white immigrants. Post Brexit, we lost a lot of highly skilled people, from across Europe & beyond.

We're also losing thousands of the best & brightest students due to an economically illiterate dog whistle visa change.

The unemployed aren't part of the economically inactive.

Good job we don't have "unchecked immigration" then, isn't it, or they'd really have something to be pissed off about.

Except this time, Jews are STILL being blamed for all this as according to conspiracy theorists, Tommy Robinson is stoking all this up as Israel paid him too.

Unfortunately the rise in popularity of conspiracy theories has provided a new recruiting ground into anti-Semitism. After all, Jews have always been charged with 'controlling the world', so its not surprising that the new generation of conspiracy theorists, have latched onto these old anti-Semitic tropes.

If it was like all the other far-right rallys that I've had the misfortune to engage with as part of my old job, about a third of the attendees will have been pissed since 9am, the other two-thirds will have been a mixed salad of social inadequates and those with LeGiTaMaTe CoNCerNs about too many brown people, especially Muslims pressure on local services, housing and infrastructure.

These people are not intelligent. History is littered with useful idiots being exploited by the likes of Tommeh Ten-Names. People like him have a knack for making stupid people feel clever and relevant.

I'd say that's because Reform aren't explicitly anti Muslim.

@Hatfullofwillow

"The unemployed aren't part of the economically inactive."

I am aware of that, but if you read the article it shows that those that are unemployed are much more likely to suffer from ill health than those that are employed. As a result unemployment turns into long term sick.

The point is that the arrogance of those who believe that the economically inactive are incapable or unsuitable of employment and are simply written off is what creates support for the likes of Tommy Robinson.

Importing skilled and unskilled labour through immigration because it is cheaper or saves training costs or because the jobs are unpleasant is exploitative and racist.

No, support for Tommy Robinson comes from racists who blame immigrants of colour for the failings of our social & economic policies over the last 60 years.

@Hatfullofwillow

"No, support for Tommy Robinson comes from racists who blame immigrants of colour for the failings of our social & economic policies over the last 60 years"

That's the irony of it.

The left dismisses those protesting against immigration levels as thick when the left itself doesn't possess the level of intellectual ability to understand what might be the root causes behind their discontent - far easier just to dismiss the protesters as all racists even when it includes people of colour.

The left also dismisses any protests against levels of immigration as racist failing to see the irony that importing labour to work in jobs that are either unpleasant or unsafe or under paid is exploitative and racist.

How about employers increased salaries or improved working conditions or improved training instead.

How about employers increased salaries or improved working conditions or improved training instead.

I agree that we should increase wages, train people up in needed skills and improve training.

However, generally on a march instigated by Robinson and his ilk, they're not arguments put forward. They want to close the borders.

If we close the borders we have no foreign students and no one to fill gaps in the labour market. It would take a while to implement changes and even given those, we don't have enough people in the country to fulfil all the roles.

The root causes of their discontent are lack of investment and lack of distribution of wealth. Instead of pointing the finger at the government, they're pointing at immigrants. This is encouraged by the right wing press and politicians because it lets them off the hook.

However, generally on a march instigated by Robinson and his ilk, they're not arguments put forward. They want to close the borders.

So they are thick then.

Have you not read this thread? Or even your own muddy justifications for supporting Yaxley Lennon and his backers.

Immigration isn't the reason for low wages, the rolling back of working conditions or the underfunding of education & training.

CowboyJoanna · Yesterday 21:46

YABU Hes not a thug,

Hmm, what would you call a man with a number of convictions for violence, who engages in mob violence, including being a football hooligan, in the past?

Ghandi?

To be fair, he's probably used that on his Indian passport. Isn't he Paul Harris on his Irish one?

I don't know, to be honest. And neither do I much care.

It really saddens me quite how polarised our society is becoming. I see a general discontent in the population that bubbled to the surface during the summer riots. The rioters were dealt with promptly but I don't think that general discontent has been addressed. Words such as fascist, thick, stupid, far right, far left are banded about much too easily. It seems we just can't have a sensible debate about anything that people may have legitimate concerns about.

If the right don't want to be dismissed as racist then they should maybe stop racialising the debate.

Just look at how the migration debate is framed. Legal migration makes up the vast majority of migration to the UK, visa overstayers are the biggest group of 'illegal migrants,' with asylum seekers making up less than 4% in total.

So, who do the right focus on? Asylum seekers, of course. And why? Because they’re mainly brown and Muslim, which plays into their narrative. You'll very rarely hear someone attending a UK patriot march or GB news presenter calling for a cap on white migrants from North America, Australia or Europe.

We've been pandering to the right’s intolerances for well over a decade, which why we're now dealing with this insidious rise of intolerance and hate. The root causes of their discontent are well known, but they're not interested debate or solutions, they just want someone to blame and take their anger out on.

If you're going to ignore the evidence, constantly make the debate about race, religion, or culture, and keep voting for people who openly lie to you (let’s not forget the tories increased these numbers over the years despite the anti-immigration rhetoric), you’re going to end up being dismissed as racist and ignorant.

How about employers increased salaries or improved working conditions or improved training instead.

That would be a left wing approach, and something Labour are at least attempting to improve with their worker's rights bill. What has been the response from the right? Oh yes, to cry that this is 'anti-business,' 'anti-growth,' and will lead to 'economic ruin'.

@username1478

"However, generally on a march instigated by Robinson and his ilk, they're not arguments put forward. They want to close the borders.

If we close the borders we have no foreign students and no one to fill gaps in the labour market. It would take a while to implement changes and even given those, we don't have enough people in the country to fulfil all the roles."

Firstly I think we can all agree that "closing the border " cannot literally mean closing the border because otherwise no could go on holiday abroad or come to the UK on holiday or for business etc etc.

What I understand from "closing the border" is a significantly restricting the level of legal migration resulting in a large reduction but not a "stop". Illegal migration by definition is illegal and cannot so easily be stopped however it can be discouraged.

So let's say we significantly restrict legal migration. On the point you raised about a reduction in the number of foreign students then Universities will find the adjustment hard, but they will have to focus on providing quality and good value education to UK students as they previously did rather than relying on ( or even exploiting) cash cow foreign students to balance their budgets.

Let's take skill shortages- there are always skill shortages and redundant skills in any economy that's how the labour market works. Right now there's a shortage of brick layers and AI engineers and a surplus of say law graduates. But in sectors of shortage then wages rise and vice versa and people retrain - this is all perfectly normal.

Yes there would be disruption in the short term as employers realise then can no longer use immigration as a low cost quick fix instead of using higher salaries and training. But it will avoid the long term cost of providing medical support and state pensions to those migrants in later years who have legitimately earned their right to and are perfectly entitled to these benefits by working in the UK and paying taxes.

We have more than enough people in the UK to perform all these roles, it's just that either UK nationals don't want to do them for the salaries offered or employers don't want to increase salaries to the levels demanded by UK nationals.

@Hatfullofwillow

"Have you not read this thread? Or even your own muddy justifications for supporting Yaxley Lennon and his backers."

And there you have the standard left wing answer to anyone who raises concerns about levels of immigration even if you logically and clearly explain the reasons for this as I have done.

Rather than enter into a rational counter argument on this, you simply shout "racist" or in this case "a muddy justification".

For your information I am not interested in justifying Tommy Robinson, he is simply a symptom not a cause. What I am interested in is understanding and addressing the root cause of the support for him rather than just shouting "racist" because of a lack intellectual ability to do anything more analytical.