Told mum that DSIS was being entitled. She told me I’m wrong. AIBU?

[Lampshadeeey]

Much younger sister (she’s 23) wants to be a lawyer. My husband’s brother is a super successful lawyer (big job) so I said that I’d set up a call and he could talk to her about breaking into the industry. They’ve only met once before, but he said he was happy to help.

Great. So the phone call was arranged, but DH’s brother forgot about the call, rearranged and then wasn’t very helpful when it happened.

Anyway that was three months ago and my mother and DSIS are still annoyed about it. My mother brings it up every time we speak as though my BIL should have offered her an internship or a job.

Today, I got fed up, and said that DSIS was being entitled and that nobody owes her a job, and my mother said I was talking DH’s brother’s side. Now we’re not talking.

Anyway, I don’t even particularly like my DH’s brother. He’s fine, but don’t care either way about him.

Now I feel like I am being the unreasonable one for not joining my mother and sister in being annoyed at BIL.

Who’s in the wrong here? I’m happy to hear that I am! But my mother is a bit enmeshed with my sister so I’m never sure.

Oh yikes, I somehow missed that she was expecting a job and not just insight!

I work in big law and your sister and mum sound completely delusional about how to get a job at an elite firm. You say she wants to go to the Magic Circle, that is as competitive as it gets, they have access to an incredible pool of talent - the best students from the best universities, with loads of extra curricular activities. Most of the trainees start applying to vacation schemes and all sorts of experience when they are still in university to start build their CV (which your sister probably didn’t do considering your mum’s comment about her CV being empty).

These firms are also highly regulated and often have nepotism rules - meaning you won’t give a training contract or a nice promotion to a relative. Absolutely bonkers that your sister, who wants to enter that world, is so clueless about what it takes.

But getting into magic circle firms requires the clear evidence of having worked your butt off and having brains

Can I make it clear that there are more law graduates than there are traineeships and that applies across the board - not just magic circle. In the dark ages when I did my law degree there were only 5 universities in Scotland which offered a law degree and most people who wanted a traineeship got one. There are now 10. I expect it's the same in England.

Nobody recruits on the basis of nepotism.

These firms are also highly regulated and often have nepotism rules

That applies everywhere.

Omg OP I'm so with you on this. I absolutely hate when the would-be recipient of a FAVOUR behaves like they missed out on something they were entitled to.

I have a childhood friend who is the most entitled person imaginable. One night over many wines she began talking about the career she would have liked if life had been different. I brightly said, I think you can tack on a years qualification to your existing degree as my sibling did it this way. I then said I didn't know all the details but suggested she email my sibling, explain I said to get in touch and ask for advice. I then forgot all about it.

Some time later I was catching up with this sibling. They were sharing three separate pieces of awful news that had come along all at once. I felt really sorry for them. Then as they were telling me they visibly jolted and said "oh!" as just remembered something followed by "that reminds me, a friend of yours contacted me that very same day looking for advice. I definitely was not in the humour for helping someone out. I felt like writing a really rude reply asking if she'd heard of Google."

We both laughed - i know they wouldn't have done something like this and the conversation moved on. Before we said bye they asked if my friend still wanted the information. I hadn't spoken to her for ages and I said "I would imagine she has looked the course up by now herself. Don't worry about it, you have enough going on"

More time passed and I was out again with Entitled Friend. Somebody asked her what she was doing with herself. She turned to me and said "well I'd be halfway through the course now if your sibling had answered me". I laughed (mistakenly assuming she was joking) and said "oh my poor sibling, you wouldn't believe the day they'd had" and shared some of the details. I fully expected some passing sympathy but instead was faced with scorn and fury.

It's now a few years on. Entitled Friend is still not pursuing any career and I hear she randomly complains to people that she would be working in a particular field if (and this is a direct quote) "X's family weren't so obsessed with keeping the route in a secret".

I hear the information thirdhand as for a multitude of similar reasons I avoid her as much as I can.

There are many ways dsis could use herself to get a job/ train as a lawyer. She needs to get on with it herself

Yes my feeling is she’d have a greater sense of pride if she did it by herself anyway!

I would put it all back on her and put yourself in a neutral position.

Take a stance of ‘spoke to a few different people and it’s all about being a self starter these days, proving that you can get on by yourself. Getting a position yourself , showing initiative etc. It will actually work against you if you tried to use contacts. That’s why they stopped all personal recommendations in magic circle firms apparently, and even look down on those trying to use contacts. Now DSIS, what have you done to initiate your own career.’

And repeat. Put all action onto your sis. If your mum moans or tries to get you/ your BIL involved, it can be ‘ remember, you can’t get involved! We help her by NOT helping her, etc.’ Once it’s clear that it’s all on her, it won’t be brought up. ( as you will hold her to account every time it is brought up!)

Those two need to grow up - don't become like them
It's like a pathetic playground exchange.

Another City lawyer here (not Magic Circle). She sounds absolutely clueless and yet she's 23!?! What is she doing for work currently? She should be paralegalling like mad to fill up her empty CV and get some actual experience that will interest an employer.
Why isn't she doing her own research on law careers?

I echo those who've said it's so competitive now. I used to be in the assessment panel for our new trainees and the standard was so high it was unbelievable. (I did wonder if I'd stand a chance these days!) The CVs that passed muster had to have stellar academics, work experience (not just law but evidence of trying your hand at anything i.e. not being afraid of hard work or "boring" tasks) and other points of interest (volunteering, travel, a specialist sport or hobby like debating etc.) I usually felt that all those at the assessment centre were such high calibre that they were all suitable but there was only space for 1 in 6 and a rigorous scoring process.

Finally I would say a career in City law because it interests you and you want to make a lot of money isn't enough. You have to absolutely love and be committed to it. I feel like I'm a lawyer every moment of my life, not just at work.

I assume he is a Corporate Lawyer? it is no place for the easily offended! You need to be resilient and driven for that kind of work not whiney and entitled.

Tbh based on what you've posted here I can imagine BIL may have come across as a little exasperated/short with your sister - it sounds as if a) she has not done a great deal so far to improve her chances herself and b) she maybe expected more (egged on by your mum) than she should from BIL.

I am a lawyer (inhouse now but I trained and qualified at a Silver Circle firm, ie the tier just below Magic Circle) and am quite regularly asked for these kinds of favours by friends and family who seem to expect that I can somehow set up work experience for them/their younger relatives, many of whom I've never even met. I'm usually quite happy to have a chat with them but the advice I can give essentially boils down to what any university careers advice service (or Google search!) would give - get work experience, through formal vacation schemes (offered by all the big firms but they are competitive!) or mini pupillages if she's interested in the Bar, or voluntary work eg at Citizens Advice or legal advice charities. You said your sister's CV was pretty empty - why? I did a non law degree at a non-Oxbridge uni but in my second summer holidays managed four paid vacation schemes at Magic Circle, Silver Circle and major national firms, as well has having volunteered at CAB since college and having a part time paid role at our local Crown Court as well as the usual bar/cafe work. I was also part of the debating team at university wrote for the university paper and had competed in and won various essay writing competitions etc. Has your sister done anything like this or has her sole focus been on the academic side? Because corporate law in any big firm is going to require a LOT of hard work and if she can't show any sign of being able to balance study with multiple other things then she won't be seen as a particularly great candidate.

The other advice I'd give is to be realistic - you haven't mentioned your sister's grades or where she went to university but unless she got very good A levels and at least a 2:1 from a decent uni (I know a lot of firms recruit 'blind' now but it's going to be pretty obvious if she has BBC at A level that she wouldn't have gone on to study law at Oxbridge or Bristol/UCL/Durham etc etc and regardless of what is said this does still matter in law...).

If she isn't doing anything to help herself in terms of her CV and has unrealistic expectations why on earth would your mum expect your BIL to give her work experience?!

3 months ago, might be time for them to get over it!

You told her you'd set up a call so he could break her into the industry - I'd read that as he'd be offering her a job, internship, scholarship etc.

It's not your problem. If they bring it up again say that you're sure there are other pathways and to do some research.

Really? You’d assume you’d be offered a role in a prestigious firm in a highly competitive industry on the basis of a phone call with your sister’s BIL? I find that bizarre.

In any case, OP said “I’d set up a call and he could talk to her about breaking into the industry”. To me, that means offering advice - the sort of roles OP’s sister should apply for, additional topics to research etc. It’s a massive leap to think this call would be a job offer (completely bypassing any standard recruiting process).

I think some people believe that's how nepotism works - they'll give anyone they know a job - these jobs are not about what you know it's who you know - don't you know!😂

This. My DH is an academic lawyer and he often gets people asking how they or their child can become a barrister or solicitor and it’s like they think he can pull strings for them!

@Lampshadeeey - I think above advice from @Andoutcomethewolves is excellent, and I would suggest you show it to your mother and sister, or at least tell them about it! Maybe they don't want to hear it?

As a million PPs have said - being a big shot lawyer is really not a nepotistic thing vs other jobs. My friends and acquaintances who are partners in big firms or doing interesting criminal work are there off the back of good grades and relentless hours at the beginning (corporate law training contracts require a LOT of hours) - once you’ve got the grades + the polish to get you in the system, it’s a pretty straightforward path for most people. Some move along it further than others. That’s largely internal politics.

Just to add, that my MIL has a Christmas party every year and my sister and mother are not attending this year because they’re so angry at BIL. In fact, my mother said that she and my sister would only attend if BIL “came good” and helped her properly. This was the point where I told my mother that my sister was acting entitled.

This makes me wonder if your BIL (poor sod) was maybe more practical and realistic than "unhelpful". It sounds like your mother and sister's idea of helpful would have been for him to give her a job, or facilitate her job-getting elsewhere.

I think your MIL probably has a lucky escape in store for her, although your mother sounds more the instigator of the hystrionics than your sister.

Don't a lot of law graduates have to work as paralegals first these days to get a foothold in the door and an eventual contract? Couldn't your sister do paralegal work in the meantime?

This makes me wonder if your BIL (poor sod) was maybe more practical and realistic than "unhelpful". It sounds like your mother and sister's idea of helpful would have been for him to give her a job, or facilitate her job-getting elsewhere.

I think this probably nails it. Unrealistic expectations combined with the fact that the BIL forgot the original call have changed the narrative to him being unhelpful, when in reality he probably gave reasonable if generic advice.

So your sister wants to become a lawyer but behaves like a brat because… why exactly? What did she EXPECT? Sorry OP but your mum and sister both sound immature. Tell them it’s the last time you’ll arrange anything for them because they are behaving entitled and unthankful and their behaviour is just embarrassing.

‘Just because he offered to talk to you about being a lawyer doesn’t mean he was obligated to offer you a job, or that he even has the power to do that. It’s a pity you didn’t find it helpful but I think you expected too much. Now please forget about it and move on cos I’m tired of hearing about it’.

@Lampshadeeey I've been in exactly this situation with family and unfortunately the relationship never recovered.

Nephew did a plumbing course at college. Struggled to find a job.

Husbands cousin is a self employed plumber and I got involved and nephew was taken on as a plumbers assistant type thing.

He really struggled. Wasn't suited to it, made some big mistakes etc which he had been repeatedly warned about. Husbands cousin sacked him.

Sister went ballistic. Despite the fact I a) had nothing to do with him being sacked and b) was in no way close to husbands cousin or took his "side" at all.

All I did was make the introduction and put a good word in for him.

Sister didn't speak to me for over a year. She is now civil but curt with me and that's it. This was over 10 years ago and it has affected our whole family.

Nephew admits he was dreadful at plumbing, went back to college, did another very different course, but still struggled to find a job and is now long term unemployed.

Sister is and always has been very entitled. Everything is somebody else's fault. Totally flew off the handle about that despite my not being at fault at all.

I don't know what you can other than repeat that it's disappointing he couldn't be more help, but stress that that is not your fault.