Told mum that DSIS was being entitled. She told me I’m wrong. AIBU?

[Lampshadeeey]

Much younger sister (she’s 23) wants to be a lawyer. My husband’s brother is a super successful lawyer (big job) so I said that I’d set up a call and he could talk to her about breaking into the industry. They’ve only met once before, but he said he was happy to help.

Great. So the phone call was arranged, but DH’s brother forgot about the call, rearranged and then wasn’t very helpful when it happened.

Anyway that was three months ago and my mother and DSIS are still annoyed about it. My mother brings it up every time we speak as though my BIL should have offered her an internship or a job.

Today, I got fed up, and said that DSIS was being entitled and that nobody owes her a job, and my mother said I was talking DH’s brother’s side. Now we’re not talking.

Anyway, I don’t even particularly like my DH’s brother. He’s fine, but don’t care either way about him.

Now I feel like I am being the unreasonable one for not joining my mother and sister in being annoyed at BIL.

Who’s in the wrong here? I’m happy to hear that I am! But my mother is a bit enmeshed with my sister so I’m never sure.

Yes!! Them against the world is exactly it!

It is one of those industries where knowing people can be very helpful when it comes to getting pupilage. But you are right, you also need to work really hard and at the stage she is at, an introduction to someone is potentially all you need- its a possible useful contact for the future and its better to think about it like that than expecting him to just give her a route map at this stage.

Oh I bet DSis expected him to gush on about how wonderful it is and offer some sort of job/internship and big up how great she'd be at it..

And he was probably pretty realistic about it being hard work and how she'd have to apply properly... and thats not what she wanted to hear thus 'he was unhelpful'...

I think you just have to let them stew, I don't think anything you can say will alter their view of how this went and who is responsible!

So did you not check with BIL first?

I agree that they have taken it too far but why volunteer someone?

She's going to need a thicker skin than that to work in the highly competitive and ruthless law industry. Falling out with people over such things is not showing she's got great calibre.
She must take whatever advice he's given her and move forward in her own way. It's not as if he's just going to hand her a job, or even an interview. She needs to do that for herself.
Your family need to butt out as well. She's an adult and it's up to her to try and further her career.
Be supportive to her of course, but she's not owed anything off this other guy with his 'big' job. It's a shame he wasn't more 'helpful', but it's just one of those things.

I did check first! Well, I said “I bet BIL would talk to you. I’ll get DH to ask him and set it up if he’s happy to chat” and it went from there. BIL said he would be happy to help. And he did call her eventually! Just wasn’t what she hoped for.

“my MIL has a Christmas party every year and my sister and mother are not attending this year because they’re so angry at BIL. In fact, my mother said that she and my sister would only attend if BIL “came good” and helped her properly.”

How fucking pathetic. And ironic, seeing as if your sister attended she might be able to talk to BIL in more relaxed setting and make a good impression / get more advice. But she’d rather act like a spoilt toddler who got told no. And your mum? Speechless…

There are 219,424 solicitors registered in England and just under 18,000 barristers.

In 2022 there were 29,000 students accepted into undergraduate degrees. In the same year just 7,000 were registered as solicitors.

So note, out of 50 years of graduates, there are approximately 220,000 solicitors.

There are a total of approximately 5,000 magic circle solicitors.

I hope those statistics wake your sister up.

"
It is one of those industries where knowing people can be very helpful when it comes to getting pupilage."

This was true in the past but really isn't now, at least for most of the legal industry. The small, family -run firms might still hold to nepotism but in most chambers and big law firms there are strict protocols to prevent it. Work experience has to be applied for centrally, rather than because you know someone. Job application are often "blind" so the assessors do not know name (often an indicator of sex and ethnicity) or educational institutions during the application process. Law still has a long way to go before it is a socially mobile profession, but it has largely left the nepotism of the past behind. My guess would be that the BIL told the OP's sister to apply through the standard process and she was disappointed with that, but that is probably the only option he had and the right thing to do.

No good deed goes unpunished, OP. I think people have unrealistic ideas about the help people can give in these circs. There’s a perception that a contact can get you a job, or at least a foot in the door. Can’t speak for smaller firms but at bigger firms that isn’t how it works any more- decisions are made at arm’s length and objectively.

I’ve offered to talk to applicants before and my experience is that some people just lose interest when they realise that a talk is all I can offer- I’m not going to pull strings and couldn’t if I wanted to. It’s a complete misunderstanding of how the industry works based on stereotypes that are 60 years out of date. I have great sympathy for your BIL if that’s how they were with him.

Most large (magic circle) firms have anti nepotism rules. DH is a senior partner in a big, international firm, and can't even give our own (school age) kids a few days of work experience. It's a good thing, imo. Nepotism absolutely used to be rife. One woman I trained with had a very poor degree from a very unimpressive university, but her brother was a partner at our firm, and as a result, not only did she get a training contract, but she also got all the best seats on the trainee rotation and was fast tracked into partnership despite her lack of ability. It was bloody frustrating for those of us who put the work in.

This is exactly like my mother and sister.

I got accused of all sorts when I pointed out that my sister with no work experience whatsoever did not meet the essential criteria to be applying for a curator job at an internationally renowned art gallery.

I do think though you should try to get DH to speak to BIL to get a realistic idea of how this went from his perspective.

I don’t often say anything against my sister to my mother, or get annoyed with my mother to her face. But I just couldn’t help it when she said that! The comment sounded as if they’d grace everyone with their presence if people helped them.

My mother saying I’m on “BIL’s side” has annoyed me so much because I don’t have any particular feelings for BIL or DH’s family. They’re all nice enough but I’m not that close to them - we don’t have a big bond or especially click but it’s all fine.

But now, my mother has phrased it like I’m on “the other side” and it’s my mother and my sister against “us”.

I don’t think BIL has thought about that interaction once since it happened.

I know I’m going on about here a lot! It’s because I’m usually a pleaser / peace-maker and this has upset me more than I think it probably should!

Your Mum and DSIS have unrealistic expectations and your mum cannot handle adversity and/or agreeing to disagree.l in a grown up manner.
It's an unfortunate combination but take comfort in the fact that it's them not you.

Sorry but your sister is living in fantasy land. To get into the magic circle firms, you need to have some sort of flair and outstanding achievements behind you. Just because you have an LLM, means nothing. Does she have work experience? Did she get a first in her degrees? What has she done besides study? To work there you either have to be the creme de la creme or ur dad owns the firm. Don't expect handouts as their interview process is likely to be very intense.

Yanbu, your Dsis was probably expecting a job following that phone call, which is why your mum and sister perceive the phone call to be unhelpful. Given her attitude, she wouldn't last in a job like that.

Was info offered to her via phone call and she didn't consider it useful as she was expecting a job offer which didn't materialise.

Ex magic circle solicitor here, I left to work overseas and ending up staying here I get where your BIL is coming from. The amount of family members who expected me to get jobs for their spoilt entitled off spring was endless and some people still ask me today to get in touch with my old contacts but I won;t. . It really was horrible and to be fair, I quite often forgot to call them back as I was so busy. People then called me a snob. The point was I worked my ass off to get into the City. My parents weren't lawyers and I got in because I had fantastic A level grades, went to a top uni and worked with no salary at another magic circle firm for six months and waited tables in a local restaurant near my parents house. Sorry but I blame your mother. How dare she treat you that way. It's her fault your sister is so entitled. Of course it's tough out there and she should get a job off her own back not asking for favours. Your BIL can never get her a job at a magic circle firm - that's not how it works. It was like that 20 years ago and it's like that today.

I have to agree with this, the ones I know would not break easily

If your DSis was expecting a job, or even work experience, off the back of that call then I suspect her lack of insight into the legal world and Magic Circle firms was very obviously to your BiL very quickly. I suspect his advice would have been centred around finding out about the firms she wants to work in if she’s serious about applying, which may not have gone down well.

Someone working all hours and earning mega bucks at a Magic Circle firm may not actually be in any sort of management position. And if they are, all the more reason they will not be offering work to a family member.

Advice from the wise: she needs to apply for paralegal jobs as well as training contracts, making sure she knows the firms she applies to and the areas of work they do really well, and she needs to evidence why she wants to do the work and why she’d be good at it (not just I want to be a lawyer…)

My understanding/ experience is that law firms have such a rigorous and transparent recruitment process nowadays, it's very rare that one bigwig lawyer can make the call/ decide to recruit anyway (ie despite his position, very unlikely he's able to employ your DS).

This is very accurate. I’m a Partner in the London office of a US law firm and it’s hard to get a training contract anywhere in the city. It’s incredibly competitive. There are plenty of places to get online experience these days - almost all law firms offer this now. She doesn’t need to use contacts, she just needs to knuckle down and focus on her applications. And, to be frank, if she doesn’t have a stellar CV (excellent school grades plus a 2:1 or 1st at a Russell/red brick or Oxbridge) with great extra curricular activities she’ll struggle.

It's never a good idea to become too involved in what is basically nepotism. It can backfire on the person who has helped & can end up interfering with their own career,especially if the person they recommend causes problems. My DH has been put in positions like this in the past. He always responds with I'm happy to provide references but never within his own workplace.

I would apologise again to your mother & sister explaining you would love to have helped further but unfortunately youve since found out it's not something you have any say in or control over.

I'm a partner in a large, non legal aid commercial and private client regional firm. Your sister sounds completely clueless about, well just about everything involved with, getting a career in law.

Oh that's frustrating! Has your sister outright said what she was hoping for from the call? Just keep repeating, "I offered to put you in touch with BIL to see if he could offer advice. I'm sorry it wasn't helpful, but there's nothing more I can do!"

A lot of young people get encouraged to set up networking calls without having a clear goal. I've spoken to a lot of friends' siblings/children about my industry (not a high earning one but a popular 'dream job') and there's such a difference between those who are obviously interested and had specific questions, and those who don't really know why they're on the call. If BIL is always at work, even giving up a short amount of time is somewhat helpful!

It is annoying that he couldn’t be more helpful. But getting into magic circle firms requires the clear evidence of having worked your butt off and having brains
and its not clear your sister has either. Then once you’re in you need a lot of resilience and motivation to stick it- is she even prepared to work hard? And I mean hard. Pathetic they aren’t going to your mils party, but up to them. Your mum might start to feel silly about it closer to the time- you can ask some pointed questions ‘Is it just this year or are you never going to speak to her again?’ Or ‘perhaps it’s for the best, if she got into a magic circle firm they probably wouldn’t give her the leave so she should get used to skipping all the parties.