to wonder why it's still considered ok to use terms that are offensive to disabled people?

[wannaBe]

because imo it isn't.

someone used the word "mong" on a thread today, and although they were pulled up by a couple of posters, that's it.

if it was a racist term it wouldn't be tolerated. so why any other offensive term? why?

And why do people still feel the need to use these terms?

sadly mn hq seem to see these kind of remarks not worthy of removal.
have to say it disapoints me. as yurt said only yesterday my ds had to deal with a situation where a idiot called dd a mong.
I have to say when I see the words that used on here and people defending it. i see my son having to fight for the rest of his life. he won't just stand there and put up with it now.
of course when he is older he will most like ly point out the fact that dd is not a spaz..she has afetoid cp and she doesn't have downs sydrome. but for now he just decks them.

Great post Eidsvold. And absolutely true about the Nazi's Riven. Horrible but very informative chapter about that topic in Michael Burleigh's book about the Nazis.

Words used to insult go in and out of fashion with teenagers. At one point with my ds everything he didn't like was "gay". Even some bike lights I had bought him for doing his paper round on unlit roads in the winter. He thought them unnecessary (because, like most teenagers he was completely invincible!!)and so they were gay. I have spent many hours pointing out the error of such comments. I have fallen into the trap of "well if Mum doesn't like it I'll say it all the more cause it will ps her off".
I have reprimanded him for being annoyed his brother gets "crip money" (dla) for "monging around all day". He once said "why can't I be a crip so I can get money for doing fk all."
As you can see I've had my work cut out to change these attitudes. But I know he said these words because:
He wants to annoy me,
He knows it will p... me off,
His mates at school do and he wants to fit in.
To shock.
He knows he maybe shouldn't

Personally I don't think for one minute he said these things to be directly offensive to the disabled population. Directly offensive to his brother cause he's p*ed off with him maybe. But him being p*ed off with him had nothing to do with his disability.
Was his brother offended by the remarks? No. He just sat there smug because he does get "crip money" and he enjoyed the fact that it annoyed his brother......Sibling rivalry.....they will find anything to argue about!
He has now passed this phase and with guidance from his parents realises that these types of words may be insulting to some people. He actually said of the disabled comments "well I only ever said it to (brother) anyway". So he knew really which backs up my doing it to annoy me theory.

It hadn't crossed my mind that mong had an offensive derivation before. It took me a little while after the first "please don't use that word" post to work out why it was offensive. Similarly for eppy. I'm quite happy to desist from using them (not that I ever really did), and I'm pleased that comments were made on the thread, so that I won't inadvertently offend.

But I think this is a situation where vinegar and honey applies. Getting cross with people and asking for words to be deleted makes people defensive. Calmly explaining the issue is much more productive.

bubblagirl was right about the word mong. It used to mean people from asia, then it was an insult and now it means something else. If only the first meaning counts then that is the 'people from asia'.

Elffriend, you said that 'Paki' was always an insult. I assume you're quite young because when I was young (when the internet was just a dream) it was a perfectly normal shortening of 'Pakistani'.

Also Elffriend, your use of the word geek was offensive since it implies I am young and have a skin problem just because I know more about computers than you do.

I will let you off this time though as ... well as I don't really give a shit about words and think the whole thing is very petty

Oh and I saw that Puff is offensive.

I have no idea what that means. It's a new one on me so I guess I can use it until I find out. I am off to have some puff pastry and a coffee.

cornflakegirl sorry but is hard to be calm when your dc's are up against it all the time.

Unfortunately, unless the world, by some miracle, becomes a wonderfully tolerant place, there will always be people who will use people's differences as a means of insult.
I know it's hard but realistically the best you can hope for is to educate those who are unaware and try to ignore the rest.

I am disabled and use crutches but am now in a wheelchair following surgery. A girl in ds1's class (who is 13) said to him "atleast my mum can walk, at least she is not a cripple!" This upset ds greatly and when I went to the school I was told I was overreacting. I asked what they would do if someone was racist they said call the police!
Double standards if you ask me!

to change tack slightly, does anyone know what term is preferred by people who are affected by Thalidomide?

yes mumoftwo- that does sound like double standards- can't believe the school thought that OK.

I am stunned that someone thought it acceptable to use that term on here.

I am even more amazed that it is thought best to leave teh remark.
Im sorry but it IS offensive.

As is "spaz" "retard" "raspberry" etc etc.

Yes it is due to ignorance, but if i ignorantly posted that i thought all black men stole old ladies handbags i would be chucked off Mn quick smart (and rightly so)

if i reffered to the local sweet shop as a "paki shop" i would have post after post telling me what an awful racist i am.

if i started a thread panicing that my son was going to grow into a "great big shirt lifter" i would cause outrage.

IT IS NO DIFFERENT!

the thing making me most angry is that there are posts here saying that those who find it offensive are somehow over reacting.

maybe if you spent your life being stared at, or your child being refered to as "retard" then you would share our distaste at seemingly articulate intelligent people thinking it ok to use such phrases.

I agree with you. But have to point out that some people don't like to be called "disabled" either (not all, I know it has been used on this thread by someone with a disability) but I know for sure that some prefer to be referred to as having a disability. I think largely it depends on the intent with which something is said. I once referred to a black person as being coloured - I just didn't know it wasn't right. She said she knew I wasn't being offensive but told me (kindly!) never to use it again....

oops, meant "I agree with OP"

lilolilmanchester, Do you feel that you did something wrong when you said "coloured'. never mind about if you said it now. Did you do something wrong then. Should you feel bad about it?

I ask because many people seem to take the position that not knowing is not an excuse. That the offense took place when you said it no matter how innocent your intent.

I don't think anyone has said that at all Greyriverside.

The stance being taken is that mumsnet should not be condoning its use. I think there are a whole host of words (not opinions, words) that shouldn't be allowed on a public site. I don't mean swear words, I mean words that are offensive to a group.

well I did feel bad, because I'd hate to offend someone, especially out of ignorance. The black lady I was talking to said really it's more about how it is said. But was keen for me to know not to use it again. It's hard to know how to keep up. Apparently "gay woman" is preferred to "lesbian" - perhaps someone else on here would be able to comment on that?

Well that's what worries me. Words can be important because if someone screams abuse at you in a street that is unpleasant and you would rightly feel threatened.

However if someone uses a word which used to be the polite term and currently isn't. And you have every reason to believe that they used it thinking it was the right term. Are you harmed at all?

(sorry not walking away from the discussion but have to go collect DD from her friend's then I can have a glass of wine...) Might be back later

If MN applied filters making it impossible to type words like "mong", a lot of people who post here would never have learned that it was offensive, or why. Some words will be contentious. The only example I can think of right now is "paddy", there are posters here who find it offensive when used for objectionable behaviour, as do the Irish people I know in real life. But the majority here on MN think it is perfectly okay to use it anyway.

More generally this thread makes me think that the way we target racism in this country is very wrong - why would anyone imagine that it is worse to disparage someone because of their race than because of their disabilities? Both are attributes that we have no choice in. It is this hateful behaviour and hateful language that should be clamped down on.

Ignorance is different, but not really an excuse.

Perhaps the woman in lilo's case didn't like the word, and wanted to make sure she didn't say it again- because she knew she wasn't meaning to offend.

If someone asked me to not swear in front of them I wouldn't. I think defending someone's right to use an offensive term is a bit daft tbh. Of course if someone who is disabled wants to call themselves crip they can- but usually they do that for a reason, to make a statement, to make people think.

And we have to remember the word under discussion here is 'mong'. I do think that the learning disabled are probably the most vulnerable group in society. We should be protecting that group (and that can be done without it being patronising, or infringing on their independece) - and one way is to say that words like mong are not acceptable.

Go on YouTube. Type in the word autism and you'll find that half the videos are followed by teenagers (I hope, hope to god its not adults) laughing at the children (usually) in the video.

Of course people can use the word by mistake, but if someone is decent they would want the meaning pointed out to them so they don't unintentionally carry on using such a word. Surely?

Perhaps the woman in lilo's case didn't like the word, and wanted to make sure she didn't say it again- because she knew she wasn't meaning to offend.

If someone asked me to not swear in front of them I wouldn't. I think defending someone's right to use an offensive term is a bit daft tbh. Of course if someone who is disabled wants to call themselves crip they can- but usually they do that for a reason, to make a statement, to make people think.

And we have to remember the word under discussion here is 'mong'. I do think that the learning disabled are probably the most vulnerable group in society. We should be protecting that group (and that can be done without it being patronising, or infringing on their independece) - and one way is to say that words like mong are not acceptable.

Go on YouTube. Type in the word autism and you'll find that half the videos are followed by teenagers (I hope, hope to god its not adults) laughing at the children (usually) in the video.

Of course people can use the word by mistake, but if someone is decent they would want the meaning pointed out to them so they don't unintentionally carry on using such a word. Surely?

I don't know about paddy (for tantrum). I found some forums based in Ireland having a discussion about it and many thought it was a funny, weren't offended by it and thought it wasn't related to anything to do with Irishness. Some were offended, but the logic seemed to be that if someone English (specifically English, not Scottish/Welsh) was using it then it must be bad and they mustbe doing it out of deep seated prejudice against the Irish. DH is Irish and doesn't connect it with paddy meaning Irishman. I think its a word that seems open for discussion.

I don't find pom offensive tbh.

Well my position is that it's the intent and only the intent that matters and that an offensive word is only offensive if intended to be.

I have just heard that puff and raspberry are bad words. I have no idea what they mean, but I just spoke them out loud to an empty room. i have to wonder if that was offensive and if so to whom.

Also can it be retroactively offensive? If I say jellybaby now and in 10 years time it picks up a new meaning and someone finds this post. Should they be offended and would I be retroactively an evil person for using it?

Right, enlighten me, why is raspberry offensive?
To me it is either
i. a fruit
ii. bodily wind