To think social mobility is impossible for working class /lower middle class kids?

[Cheeriosay]

And if it is possible how?! I feel the prospect of social mobility is at an all time low for teens/young adults due to the educational crisis in schools, cost of living crisis & lack of opportunity to move up in the world. This was relatively easy years ago either through education, marriage (or both).. Now it's not going to be as easy for teens & young adults who want to climb the social ladder.
I'm putting it bluntly, I'm sure some posters will be on soon to say these teens should know their place & not be getting ideas above their station but sod that!

No thing's impossible, but it's very difficult. And some aspects of privilege can last several generations even after the money runs out. I think it's often more powerful having a bit of "posh" behind you than a bit of cash.

On the other hand, in the 70s there was an expanding middle class, whereas now we have a shrinking of middle class occupations,, there was better access to non-academic education in the form of technical college and apprenticeships, there was adult education so all was not lost if you failed at school, there was more social housing available, better public transport for actually getting a job, and so on. So I wouldn't agree that overall it was much more difficult then

It doesn’t affect a vast majority however it reduces some social mobility and widens the have and have nots even further

Seems many have had their noses put out of joint that they are now on the side of the have nots!

No no, I gave my opinion and then you said "You are wrong and the evidence backs me up". And you asserted that twice. So now let's see what evidence or research you were referring to (twice).

Those from privileged backgrounds are more likely to get in, so for those it just entrenches their privilege.

Getting in to a grammar might improve things for child A and child B from a less privileged background. However this is at the expense of children C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M..... who are excluded.

Social mobility is as much about aspiration as income/class.
My daughters class has a wide social spectrum from moderately well off/professional class, to those on minimum wage. Within all groups there are parents who say 'education is really important to us, we don't want our children to struggle like we did', couldn't afford tutoring but got 2nd hand study books and studied with their child and their children have just passed 11 plus to go to grammer. And those who prioritise other things over this, and their children have lovely fancy clothes, a nice car but they said they couldn't possibly afford tutoring. Not thst children can't acheive in a comp of course, but education is a key factor in social mobility.

The other big change is professional degree level apprenticeships. When I trained as a physio 20 years ago is was predominantly well educated young female intake, many from private schools or grammer as many courses asked for all A's at A level, I was a bit of an anomaly as a working class student from a very poorly performing school. Now there are apprenticeships, and they can study on the job, and it's a much more diverse intake. After a few years working, salaries are over 50k, so with no uni fees these people will be able to afford property, and 1 colleague is sending 2 of her children to private school as her salary covers this.

As I have said, the research shows that social mobility has fallen away since to 60s/70s/80s (some has been linked above, from the OECD).

You keeping referencing 'drive' which you don't even define. Your remark was can you point me to any specific research that includes a good quality measure of the subjects' drive to which my answer is - no, I don't have any research about this meaningless concept you have made up.

Goodness me, people who can afford private education with a few sacrifices and are feeling the squeeze from the VAT rules are not the ‘have nots’. Social mobility isn’t about moving from the well off into the rich category. It’s about moving from insecure homes and food to security.

It blows my mind what some people consider ‘being poor’ is on this platform.

Apparently social mobility is not in decline. And yes I can see this was published in 2023.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f853399ee0f2000fb7bf80/state-of-the-nation-2023.pdf

But that's your fantasy now at work.

From the quality of the available teachers, to the quality of the intake... It is never ever going to be a level playing field.

There's a reason why the well-to-do-ambitious want to live in Grammar areas. Because it IS a leg up. It IS a quality educational environment.

But yeah, back to my hole... Where majority of children barely speak English in my son's class and so the level of work is adapted to those hard of understanding. The homework has been a thing of the past for a year already - cancelled just because no one bothered to do it anyway and parents couldn't be persuaded to care. They do it in the class now. At expense of who knows what.
Our Secondary will be based solely on distance, and... God help us. As the government won't.

Which is why the cuts from the last government were so damaging - removing all support from families and just allowing the housing situation to worsen and worsen.

No one is denying a grammar place confers an unfair advantage.

But that is precisely why they do not help with social mobility.

Children from privileged backgrounds are far more likely to get in.

Yep..just look at the stats pre and post 11 plus grammar school system. Plus look at the stats on white working class boys going to uni 16% black working class boys 32%...
BUT black working class boys do 60% worse than all other students at university!

So black working class boys are twice as likely to get to university but don't do well. Less than one in 5 working class white boys even get the chance!

Dreadful statistics..here's one more for you to prove this isn't a recent thing. In 1980 I and 241 follow 11 years old sat in our senior school hall. In 1987, at 18 one went to university. Less than 0.5 %. I had more chance of being a teenage mother...1%

It’s always been very rare (I have a degree in social sciences). There was an article in the guardian about 10 years ago saying that if you want to know what someone does for a living, look at what their ancestors did 5 generations ago and in terms of social standing, it won’t be far removed.

I’m a bit of an anomaly I guess because I’m the child of an upper middle class DF and very working class DM. So she married into money, but was never really accepted, by my DF’s family and friends, she was never ‘one of them’. And I can say it’s hella confusing growing up in that set up, I don’t belong in either class. As the children of my DM, we were never really accepted either. My parents are no longer together, unsurprisingly.

Salaries are pretty shit here too & have stagnated for yrs.

If you don't understand what "drive" means, then I am wondering why you felt so confident in slapping down my original opinion.

And I would still love for you to share what research you were referring to when you wrote:

The research shows that it is harder for those who are self-motivated with lots of drive than it was in the 60s/70s/80s.

Unless of course you were just making shit up to bolster your opinion.

Left wing politics in general does tend to reduce social mobility. The preference being for greater equality in outcome which the left would describe as levelling up and the right describe as levelling down.

Social mobility and the inevitable creation of winners and losers doesn't sit well with left wing politics.

The quote that comes to mind is:

The left believes in equality and fairness which the right criticises as the politics of envy and economically unviable. The right believes in personal responsibility and ambition which the left criticises as selfishness and the politics of greed.

We already know what helps:

Sure start programmes and heavy investment in early years provision

Primary schools with money for academic and social interventions and counselling

Schools that offer rich curriculums with art, drama, music, MfL and sport (played in proper playing fields)

Affordable, quality, secure housing

Ditto food

Increasing access to higher education for state educated children

Every blow to private education and increase in inheritance tax helps

Even better would be quality, paid internships from 16 and 18 for those who want to learn a trade

All that costs money. It needs to be a government priority.

Apparently social mobility is not in decline. And yes I can see this was published in 2023.

The research says occupational mobility hasn’t declined, income mobility has though.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62b2e45b8fa8f5357a677f29/State_of_the_Nation_2022_A_fresh_approach_to_social_mobility.pdf

Social mobility has decreased in terms of the traditional paths and a degree gives you much less value than 20-30 years ago. But at the same time is more mobility than before in terms of creatives (real ones not did a course). Streamers, influencers, hobbyist and learning channels, musicians (working through streams and promoting on platforms like youtube) etc have a much easier path than they would have done 20-30 years ago. The internet has been an instantly accessible audience who will pay with their attention(ad revienue) and/or cash patreon. we're literally earning for mumsnet right now. Moaning about the past just stops you from realising opportunities now which a lot of young people are taking. Think about the backgrounds of the top youtubers and podcasters atm.