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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think social mobility is impossible for working class /lower middle class kids?

350 replies

Cheeriosay · 19/10/2024 19:50

And if it is possible how?! I feel the prospect of social mobility is at an all time low for teens/young adults due to the educational crisis in schools, cost of living crisis & lack of opportunity to move up in the world. This was relatively easy years ago either through education, marriage (or both).. Now it's not going to be as easy for teens & young adults who want to climb the social ladder.
I'm putting it bluntly, I'm sure some posters will be on soon to say these teens should know their place & not be getting ideas above their station but sod that!

OP posts:
Tiredalwaystired · 19/10/2024 22:10

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As opposed to the Tories that did what exactly..?

Sailonsilverrgirl · 19/10/2024 22:11

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Tiredalwaystired · 19/10/2024 22:13

wheredidthetime · 19/10/2024 20:07

I am not sure I'm understanding your post. But I'm working glass a single mum. Both my Dds did well at school bought up in London one went to Bristol uni the other Manchester. It was a struggle both had to work part time jobs there way through. They both have great jobs now and mix in all types of circles. One has a boyfriend who would be classed as upper class the other works in an environment were many went to private school. They do not feel out of place. the importance iI installed thay they are no less or better then anyone else and can archive what ever they want too. I'm not saying it's not harder in life but there shouldn't be boundaries on who they will mix with or what they will achieve.

Yes but what you’re talking about are young adults. They are no longer actually kids. The ones still at school are growing up in a yet more challenging environment, which even within a few years isn’t comparable, not least because even the terms of student loan repayments has changed.

Drfosters · 19/10/2024 22:13

verycloakanddaggers · 19/10/2024 21:53

Of course it is better to educate everyone well up to statutory leaving age. Absolute waste to have people educated badly.
The idea you would be fine for people who do minimum wage jobs to not be educated well is offensive.

What is your definition of educated well though? Everyone getting As?

I think everyone should have a base level of pure academic education (maths, English at minimum) . Forcing people to do chemistry and physics etc when they aren’t interested nor have the ability I think it ultimately pointless.

Teaching people trades from a young age such as plumbing, building work etc is far more valuable for some children.

the idea that everyone should be academic i think is a major flaw in the education in this country. Everyone (no matter how rich or how poor) should have access to an education that is personally suited to them. It doesn’t have to be one that promotes ‘social mobility’.

Bushmillsbabe · 19/10/2024 22:14

Gogogo12345 · 19/10/2024 21:37

But it isn't true that the sky is the limit and they can be anything they want. That's just bollocks. Some people merely don't have the basic intelligence or ability for something no matter how hard they work or apply themselves

But they will still acheive better if they aspire and work really hard than if they didn't.
I would say I am of average intelligence, but the expectation was placed on us by our working class parents that if we worked hard at school, we wouldn't face the same struggles they did. I went on to acheive top grades, went to university. Then bought a flat for £70k in 2002 with my student loan, did it up, sold it for 140k a few years later, same with a small house, and we now own a house worth around 850k. No inheritance, no gift from 'bank of mum and dad'.
My brother didn't put the effort in despite same or higher natural ability and same start in terms of parents. He is in a low wage job, rents a flat, unlikely to ever own.

TheRealSlimShandy · 19/10/2024 22:14

RampantRamparts · 19/10/2024 22:03

I work in law. I’m from a solid working class background, a crap working class town and went to a dreadful comprehensive. I now earn a very, very good salary, live a firmly middle class lifestyle, in a “posh” suburb of a major city.

The main factor in me being socially mobile was supportive parents who weren’t pushy but who didn’t limit what I could do, and my own attitude that I won’t take no for an answer or be told I can’t do something.

Many of my parent’s friends have commented that they think me and my brother (who has done similar) have got above ourselves, that there is no value in going to University. That’s the same message they passed to their kids - university isn’t for you, you can’t do that, stay in your lane. It’s pathetic and self-limiting.

Opportunities in law for people from working class backgrounds are better than ever before. Apprenticeships are fantastic, some really talented young people coming through, firms specifically targeting schools and communities who might not think law is for them, assessing applications “blind” (without the name of their university or school, or any other info that might lead to bias). It’s far from perfect but heading in the right direction.

Edited

Unless they want to be a barrister. Because let’s be honest - pupils are on kess than minimum wage, a wig costs more than their families can afford and they need to work for about four years or so before they’re earning enough to support themsleves

coxesorangepippin · 19/10/2024 22:16

If you are working class and have a Northern accent, you've no chance

You're better off abroad

(Waits for people from Stow on the Wold to tell me otherwise)

SweetSakura · 19/10/2024 22:19

I think the main difference now is that even if you work hard and earn a decent salary you still can't easily attain a decent lifestyle as house prices are so high.

Salary is now almost immaterial relative to inherited/gifted wealth.

I know high earners struggling far more than people who work very part time or live on benefits but have inherited/been gifted a home.

Tiredalwaystired · 19/10/2024 22:19

Bushmillsbabe · 19/10/2024 22:14

But they will still acheive better if they aspire and work really hard than if they didn't.
I would say I am of average intelligence, but the expectation was placed on us by our working class parents that if we worked hard at school, we wouldn't face the same struggles they did. I went on to acheive top grades, went to university. Then bought a flat for £70k in 2002 with my student loan, did it up, sold it for 140k a few years later, same with a small house, and we now own a house worth around 850k. No inheritance, no gift from 'bank of mum and dad'.
My brother didn't put the effort in despite same or higher natural ability and same start in terms of parents. He is in a low wage job, rents a flat, unlikely to ever own.

I think you may have lost most people with “I bought my flat with a student loan”.

Christinglechristmas · 19/10/2024 22:19

@Cheeriosay I've been in mumsnet over a decade now and I've never heard someone say know their place.

Unfortunately education is a huge mobility driver. When we had loads more gammer with teacher involvement and assistance many more children from the low socio economy backgrounds where lifted up.. Then we were told that was bad it wasn't working and comps were created.

Some are good many are dire. Every route for poorer people is being kicked away by the very people suppose to be champions.

SweetSakura · 19/10/2024 22:20

TheRealSlimShandy · 19/10/2024 22:14

Unless they want to be a barrister. Because let’s be honest - pupils are on kess than minimum wage, a wig costs more than their families can afford and they need to work for about four years or so before they’re earning enough to support themsleves

Agreed, and the Bar need to sort this to ensure they attract the brightest and the best.

Cheeriosay · 19/10/2024 22:21

wheredidthetime · 19/10/2024 20:07

I am not sure I'm understanding your post. But I'm working glass a single mum. Both my Dds did well at school bought up in London one went to Bristol uni the other Manchester. It was a struggle both had to work part time jobs there way through. They both have great jobs now and mix in all types of circles. One has a boyfriend who would be classed as upper class the other works in an environment were many went to private school. They do not feel out of place. the importance iI installed thay they are no less or better then anyone else and can archive what ever they want too. I'm not saying it's not harder in life but there shouldn't be boundaries on who they will mix with or what they will achieve.

How long ago was this? Times have changed dramatically unfortunately.

OP posts:
SweetSakura · 19/10/2024 22:24

Bushmillsbabe · 19/10/2024 22:14

But they will still acheive better if they aspire and work really hard than if they didn't.
I would say I am of average intelligence, but the expectation was placed on us by our working class parents that if we worked hard at school, we wouldn't face the same struggles they did. I went on to acheive top grades, went to university. Then bought a flat for £70k in 2002 with my student loan, did it up, sold it for 140k a few years later, same with a small house, and we now own a house worth around 850k. No inheritance, no gift from 'bank of mum and dad'.
My brother didn't put the effort in despite same or higher natural ability and same start in terms of parents. He is in a low wage job, rents a flat, unlikely to ever own.

Yes I would say it is even stretching it somewhat to claim you are of average intelligence if you can't see that your good fortune to ride the rapid increases in house prices is precisely the reason the next generation just cannot access the housing market. Not your fault personally but you could at least gave some awareness of the changes in the last 20 years and how they impacted younger generations

Christinglechristmas · 19/10/2024 22:27

@SweetSakura @TheRealSlimShandy

I kmow two barristers, both get uc because their income us so low. Immigration.

Igglepigglesgrubbyblanket · 19/10/2024 22:31

I think you're right it's a lot harder now. Happened for me mainly because of free higher education and student grants. I was really lucky and also quite academic (I'm now a lecturer, parents were trades/dole through my childhood & no-one had studied beyond 16)
If I was a teen these days I'd be too worried about debt to go to uni.

Gogogo12345 · 19/10/2024 22:32

Bushmillsbabe · 19/10/2024 22:14

But they will still acheive better if they aspire and work really hard than if they didn't.
I would say I am of average intelligence, but the expectation was placed on us by our working class parents that if we worked hard at school, we wouldn't face the same struggles they did. I went on to acheive top grades, went to university. Then bought a flat for £70k in 2002 with my student loan, did it up, sold it for 140k a few years later, same with a small house, and we now own a house worth around 850k. No inheritance, no gift from 'bank of mum and dad'.
My brother didn't put the effort in despite same or higher natural ability and same start in terms of parents. He is in a low wage job, rents a flat, unlikely to ever own.

Say for example I wanted to be a singer or an artist. I never would've been successful at either as no matter how high I aspired and how hard I work I'd still sound like a cat's choir and unlikely to be able to draw or paint anything that anyone would want to buy.

I simply don't have those types of abilities

florasl · 19/10/2024 22:33

@coxesorangepippin thats just not true. I am Northern, my parents from Liverpool and teenagers when they had me. I did an apprenticeship plus an evening job, uni (first in my family) and now my children go to the pre prep of a public school. My children are not outcasts for being from a WC background and northern.

I was the first year to pay £9k uni fees and worked two jobs to put myself through, no inheritance or help. There was certainly more opportunities for me than my parents had in the 90s.

SweetSakura · 19/10/2024 22:33

Christinglechristmas · 19/10/2024 22:27

@SweetSakura @TheRealSlimShandy

I kmow two barristers, both get uc because their income us so low. Immigration.

I know a lot of barristers (due to my job and that of various relatives) . It's pretty hard to generalise.

Christinglechristmas · 19/10/2024 22:34

Of course I'm just pointing out it's not necessarily the road to riches at all and not every barrister is extremely wealthy.

Tumbleweed101 · 19/10/2024 22:35

I’ve never been well off, my parents were average working class people with a council house. However I was able to afford to rent my own place with my partner at the time at only 19yo. It cost £320 a month for a two bed cottage.

My daughter is 24 and would love to move out but can’t find anything under £800, for a studio and over £1000 a month for a two bed. That’s over half her wage, perhaps even nearer two thirds. The youngsters without help and average jobs don’t stand a chance.
The other thing that bugs me is all the new ‘affordable’ housing that starts about £350k. How is that affordable on a entry level wage?

izimbra · 19/10/2024 22:36

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Lol - how?

WhereIsMyLight · 19/10/2024 22:37

Social mobility is down to luck. I say this as someone from a single parent in a working class area and now living what would be classed as a typically middle class lifestyle. Although I don’t really feel like I fit on either side now.

There are obviously factors that influence social mobility like two involved parents, early years education, an investment in education (that doesn’t mean private schools but taking children to libraries or museums). Natural genetic ability and access to a good enough school that can nurture that ability. The drive. Along with a whole host of other things. But whether you have access to those things or not, is luck. The lack of systems to support social mobility at the moment just means people need to be luckier.

I have a friend at school who was very similar to me. We had very similar grades, very similar intelligence that we didn’t need to work too hard to get good grades. We both had divorced parents, although her mum had remarried and mine hadn’t. Parents jobs at a similar level. She wanted to do a much more ambitious degree than I did, at a better university. However, her mum was diagnosed with terminal cancer in her first year. She didn’t finish uni. She went back to our hometown. I finished uni and moved away. We both have bought houses but hers was through an inheritance from her mum, she would struggle to save a deposit had that not been the case.

Maybe I had that drive that most people who have achieved social mobility talk about. It’s often labelled as hard work and I have worked hard but not any harder than my friend. As far back as I can remember I knew I had to move away from home, that the type of job I wanted wasn’t available to me there. I think if it had been my mum diagnosed with terminal cancer, I would still have that desire to move away after she’d gone. But maybe if my mum had died I’d have re-evaluated things and ignored that desire to move away, that drive to find a better job. Maybe grief would have drowned that voice saying to move away for a good job out. I can’t say for certain.

I had things stacked against me and things stacked in my favour such as a mum invested in my early education and teachers that took an interest and encouraged me. Maybe it’s that drive to move away that pushed things into my favour but I don’t know where that came from. It’s just always been there in me. Maybe someone (or likely several people) instilled it in me at an early age or maybe I was born with it. As I say, maybe it could have been dampened by bereavement or depression or disability or anything really that makes life harder.

As for increasing chances for your own kids social mobility, put as many things in their favour as you can - be invested in their education, take them to the library and the museum. Try to encourage them to move away if they need to and understand that means they won’t visit all the time, you might go long periods without seeing them. If you have good financial literacy, teach it to them. If not, try and find someone who can teach them how to manage their money. Then hope they’re one of the lucky ones.

Christinglechristmas · 19/10/2024 22:40

I guess we all go off experiences.
I grew up with my parents /family story.
I was a late baby so my parents were war babies.
I'm 46

My parents started married life with dm living in a b and b whilst df was in room also t.hen he got some wages saved they got a bedsit and that's where ds was born. After that he got his first good job for ici and they moved to modest house in Scotland and
4 house moves and job upgrades later they were in a really nice house in cotswolds.
No one could afford to kit them out either like that big 80s weddings, each item was saved in for. Like an ironing board etc and it was a fun adventure so I kind of think now it sounds a little spoilt to expect housing and equipment and everything?

Bushmillsbabe · 19/10/2024 22:40

Tiredalwaystired · 19/10/2024 22:19

I think you may have lost most people with “I bought my flat with a student loan”.

I worked to support myself at university, so managed to save my student loan for the 7k deposit needed. My first post grad salary was about 17k
I'm not sure why that's a bad thing, but I'm sure you will tell me....

Looking at the area I bought in, can get a similar flat for around 120k, starting salary for same role is over 30k, so nearly doubled. Arguably it's therefore easier to buy a similar property in same location than it was for me 20 years ago, looking at price vs salary.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 19/10/2024 22:40

verycloakanddaggers · 19/10/2024 20:10

Grammar schools are proven to stand in the way of social mobility.

What is going on for all the other 'working class girls' who are not in your small niche closed school?

Steady on. I'm not actually defending the grammar school system. I'm just saying what it was supposed to do, and that in some cases some grammar schools may still do that for some students. I'm not claiming it's fair.