AIBU to turn a blind eye or this borderline neglect?

[octobero]

I have a friend who I've known for a long time, she has two children aged 15 and 8, neither fathers are involved and never have been. To be honest I think this was her doing and cut contact when both kids were very young.

Our son is also 8 and they are best friends and get on very well. Friends son (FS) will often come to ours for dinner after school or a sleepover at the weekends but I feel she just doesn't make any time for him. Also this isn't a criticism thread just want to know whether people think I should get involved or leave her to it:

• her house is a tip. Not just a bit messy but dirty too. Sink is constantly full of washing up, the bathroom is grimy and there are toys and clothes everywhere. I have offered to give her a hand and will always try to bits here and there but she always says "oh I was just about to do the washing up/tidy the toys away etc". One time there was a crusty cat poo under the table, I was just like "oh Dcat seems to have had an accident; let me clean it up quick". I couldn't stand the thought the children standing in it or anything.
• FS will often come to us grubby. I know children get like it, but not from say playing outside that day but grubby ears and under fingernails, greasy hair etc. clearly he hadn't been washed for at least a few days. He happily has a bath at ours (which F is happy with me to do, she'll often ask me to bath him if he's staying over).
• his home work is never done. If we have him after school I will sit them both down so they can do it together before playing. The children have reading diaries and homework books and F has never once filled these in/or has home work been done. Unfortunately FS is falling behind in some areas, she showed me his latest report, but she hasn't seemed to make any changes.
• his attendance at school is low. She will keep him off for the slightest sniffle or if she isn't feeling well. Yet I would always offer to take him in if id known before school. The last time was that he'd felt sick in the night, hadn't actually been sick but she kept him off for two days "just in case". Again his report stated his attendance was so poor it was 75% and affecting his learning.

I don't want this to come across as a digging post at my F but more whether I should get more involved to help with things. Unfortunately I do feel it's more that she's just lazy, She has a lot of family close by who help with childcare etc.

It doesn’t like that at all. She’s said mum doesn’t work and suspects she’s just lazy. I doubt she’s entertaining the children with creative projects! Rather just letting them watch TV and eat junk food

My point was that her friend won’t accept help if she feels judged.

The school won't zpeka to you but they should listen. I'd just bulletpoint some concerns and speak to the safeguarding lead over the phone.

Tbf it’s hard to know about the arrangements with the dads without all the details.

It could be that the mum in OP’s case really has stopped contact-

One of my colleagues has basically stopped her child’s dad seeing the child simply out of spite/because she doesn’t like the dad. He’s been through the court system but she makes his life hell and does everything humanly possible to stop contact/makes it virtually impossible for him to see the child. She’s quite open about this, strangely. Seems to think is something to be proud of.

Aside from the state of the house, school will be aware of all these things. They know his attendance, homework and will see a grubby, unkempt child. So not sure there is any benefit to reporting concerns to them. He is likely on their radar. But the NSPCC have been running a big campaign recently encouraging any adult to report any concerns. I would try contacting them. If they get involved and contact the school that might kick start some action.

Probably shouldn't have added the image, as it is talking more about sexual abuse. But it is anything that is concerning, including neglect.

Would you have the same view if this was dad not giving the little boy a bath for days and leaving cat shit under the table? if this woman isn’t working and has time for a new relationship she presumably has time to keep her son and her home in a decent state.

It is neglect and I would be surprised if the school wasn't already on it.

I would quietly report it to the school's DSL lead anyway just to make sure.

Thank you for caring and for being good for and to this child.

As someone brought up in a rough area, there are many homes that are like that. There is no way the state can intervene in vast numbers. The only thing the authorities will act on is the attendance. Dilemma op I would not be friends with this woman, due to the neglect.but you still need to help the child. You are doing your best.

I would be friends if only to support the dc.

You’re a kind person op and I’m sure the dc enjoys his sleepovers.

they may not be able to discuss her with you but they CAN listen to what you have to say.

So it doesn't apply to all concerns and shouldn't be suggested as such.

With the increase in CP and safeguarding awareness over the last few years, the Munro review of child protection said that it's often difficult for people to know what to report and what not which has led to CYPSS being overwhelmed with inappropriate referrals, which makes it difficult to identify the children that really need intervention.

CYPSS have consistently said that it's difficult when everyone is reporting what they think needs reporting, which doesn't often correlate with what CYPSS would actually see as requiring intervention.

There's a climate of fear in CYPSS and anxiety around 'missing cases' and it it's a diificult balance between not putting people off from raising concerns, but also time being wasted processing concerns that wouldn't meet threshold for intervention.

I think if you're uneasy, you could say something to the school - but from what you've described I don't think I would be

My 8 yo doesn't do her homework either. I don't think homework should be set for primary kids so we don't bother with it. No ones ever said anything.

My house is often grimy before I get round to cleaning it.

My daughter often needs a hair wash and has filthy fingernails - and then I bath her and wash her hair! - but sometimes we do run out of time at the end of a day and prioritise sleep so she'll be dirty a day longer than ideal.

So if she makes time for them to play with them, talk to them, take them out etc. I wouldn't necessarily say neglect that she doesn't make time for the other things. Especially if they're happy.

I work in school. Trust me the issues you are seeing will already be on daily reports from observations of teachers, they certainly should be. Dirty hair, nails, unwashed etc all go down as safeguarding/neglect.

“I think if you're uneasy, you could say something to the school - but from what you've described I don't think I would be”

well no because with respect it sounds from what you’ve said that you’re taking the same approach with your own daughter. There’s really no excuse for not keeping your child clean.

This.

I don't think most MNetters know just how many people live like this. It might be abnormal compared to other demographics but isn't within lots of cultures, communities and social structures. And has been for generations.

So there's a balance to be made with wanting to impose certain expectations and 'standards' on everyone, and realising those expectations may not be realistic in wanting to impose on everyone, group, society or culture.

School won't speak to you about this, but they will listen to you if you speak to them.

You are being a bit judgey, describing her as lazy. It's not easy to accept help from someone you think may be judging you, so perhaps this is partly why she isn't receptive to your offers? Might there be other reasons that she's struggling?

I’m shocked at your response. How can you run out of time to make sure your child goes to school clean? I work in school and it is our job to make a report if children come into school dirty from the previous day, unwashed hair, dirty fingernails etc. keeping children clean is a basic need. Yes of course they go out and play and get filthy, this is normal, but letting them go to school dirty is not.
yesterday a child told me they did not want to share a book with their partner, because their hands were dirty. Kids can be cruel, and yes, even very young kids notice things.
As for not bothering with the homework, you are teaching your child that they don’t need to follow expectations. Poor show !

You need to talk to your friend. You can say nothing and do nothing. You can report to ss and that will be the end of your friendship or you can talk to her.
The school will have seen he is grubby. They will know he is absent often. They will know his homework isn't done. None of these things will be enough to warrant any social care involvement in my experience.

Do you think she could be depressed? Sometimes when you're in a dark place you don't often see it until your out of it. It sounds to me as though she is struggling to cope with being a single Mum. It is alot on your own and if you don't keep on top of things it's so easy for things to get out of hand.
We have been through something similar with a family member recently and turns out they've been silently struggling with depression since lockdown 😞

School will already know most of this so I wouldn't report it personally.

Do they wear appropriate clothes for the weather? Do they have shoes that fit them? Do they get taken to the dentist or to the doctor when ill? Are they well fed? Is any of what's going on putting them at risk of being physically harmed?

An untidy house where the dishes haven't been done is not a big deal. The cat poo is horrible but sounds like a one off incident. The rest the school will already be aware of.

The school will already be concerned if the child is turning up grubby, homework not done and definitely if their attendance is as low as 75%. You should still report your concerns.

Lots of interventions will be in place or soon will be through the poor attendance alone. I’m sure your friend is contacted regularly about that and called in for meetings etc.

Yes, this is neglectful and she's a terrible mother, but I'm not sure what can really be achieved.

It's not serious enough that the children will be removed from her care and social services involvement often ends up doing more harm than good, especially if the parent getting the "help" is resistant to it and ends up isolating the child further.