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New Lucy Letby details

1000 replies

Mrsdoyler · 16/10/2024 20:51

Did you see today in the news that LucyLetby originally failed her nursing training.

Reason: Lack of empathy

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
kkloo · 22/10/2024 20:00

Firefly1987 · 22/10/2024 19:31

It's been said Lucy herself was the one to decide not to have the defence witness so nothing to do with Ben Meyers being incompetent. I have to feel sorry for the poor bloke, he did the best with what he had, and because she was 100% guilty and people still can't get their heads round that, they think her defence must've been inadequate. He has to go with what his client instructs. Highly doubt he would've put her on the stand either because he would know she'd come across badly. But she wanted to because she craves the attention so that cemented her guilt.

He has to go with what she instructs, but she's being advised by him. So she has the final decision but she's relying on his opinion in order to make that decision.

Of course she may have went against his advice but I would say it's highly unlikely that he wanted to put an expert witness on the stand and she said no.

Quitelikeit · 22/10/2024 20:04

Ok let’s talk again when LL is released.

😂😂😂😂

Mirabai · 22/10/2024 20:21

Myers is an experienced KC but he was working with a small scale local solicitor with no track record of high profile murder trials or cases with complex scientific evidence.

Myers can only work with the case he is presented with by the solicitor.

However, he is responsible for court strategy and he will have been responsible for the failure to call their medical witnesses and their statistician, such as they were, or at least advising LL not to call them.

The primary failure of the defence team in the aggregate - was the failure to the present a full narrative aka the truth to counter the prosecution - of the under-resourced, underfunded unit, with dodgy plumbing and infected water supply, with insufficient consultant cover, suboptimal care resulting in failure to diagnose and effectively treat the babies in their care with tragic consequences.

To that end they needed to call the writers of the RCPCH report, Drs Hawdon and McPartland, the original pathologists, neonatologists, microbiologist, epidemiologists, statisticians, Shoo Lee and other experts in air embolisms, paediatric endocrinologists, Kathryn de Beger and forensic psychologists etc. Of course nurse colleagues would have been ideal too but we understand they were warned off testifying by the hospital.

Had that occurred, this trial would have been very different and potentially a very different outcome.

David Allen Green, the well known legal writer posed the question: what should happen when a defence team for reasons good or bad, fails to call expert witnesses. Adam King the renown criminal barrister has set out reasons why there may be a miscarriage of justice in this case.

If you talk to lawyers there more questions than answers as to what happened with the defence.

Firefly1987 · 22/10/2024 20:27

kkloo · 22/10/2024 20:00

He has to go with what she instructs, but she's being advised by him. So she has the final decision but she's relying on his opinion in order to make that decision.

Of course she may have went against his advice but I would say it's highly unlikely that he wanted to put an expert witness on the stand and she said no.

You think that's highly unlikely yet think it's completely believable that a very experienced KC just simply dropped the ball...

GossIsAGit · 22/10/2024 20:57

Grahamhousehushand · 22/10/2024 17:53

@kkloothat's a separate ground for appeal. No one can rule out new evidence as a basis for appeal. We can rule out inadequate defence as a basis for appeal as it is based not on what any of us think her defence strategy should have been but on whether her defence met specific procedural requirements of adequacy. If her counsel pitched up rolling drunk every day, she was denied legal advice in the police station, or it comes to light that I dunno, Ben Myers, is a violent bully who told her to plead not guilty but not call medical evidence that could exonerate her under duress for because he likes to see his clients lose because that's somehow yeah this doesn't make sense. Otherwise assuming we're in the same shared reality inadequate defence is a non starter.

After that @LoremIpsumCici

Doorswipe - dunno but my understanding is it doesn't help her. Correcting the entrance and exits to the wards fixes the times she was witnessed alone near the crib more precisely.
Shift chart - no statistical analysis was ever adduced at trial so there was never anything to rebut. Richard Gill finds this hard to accept but precisely because of the Lucia de Berk and Daniela Poggiali cases obviously the prosecution did not make wild claims that the chances of LL being on shift for this many deaths were x many million to one against. I think this is right. Even if relevant statisticians has been involved the underlying base rates and identifying the key variables make this a mares nest. Instead the shift table placed her and only her at the scene of every alleged offence. The only probability the jury then have to assess is the probability that if the babies were deliberately harmed was it by two other people (bearing in mind only parents and professionals can enter the ward) or the one common factor. I keep saying this but if you can play Cluedo you can decide this. It does not prove her guilty as obviously the jury also have to be convinced the babies were deliberately harmed and more corroboration was provided in each case that Letby was either the designated nurse or witnessed providing care to each baby before they collapsed.
Air embolism - see above. It wasn't invalid and she has already had an appeal heard on this point.
X ray for baby C - it's clear from the trial transcript Evans knew when she was on shift. The relevance of the x ray the day before the fatal collapse is it proves that air bubble was not causative of death. The baby has a collapse on day 1 of life and an x ray showed air along the spine attributable to a medical procedure. The baby was successfully resuscitated and was doing well. On day two of life the baby collapsed and died. It was not at trial that Letby caused the first collapse although Evans admitted when he read the medical records BEFORE having any idea of the alleged assailants identity he wondered if the same attacker could be responsible for both collapses. This is problematic as it would appear Evans eliminated the first collapse as suspicious once it was clear there was no assailant on duty. But this is clear from both the prosecution and defence questioning at trial. It isn't new evidence.
The paediatric endocrinologist who gave evidence at the trial would disagree with you on the significance of the c-peptide results.
I think we agree the notes are not confessions but there is no evidence they were directed by a therapist either. At most she may have been encouraged to write her feelings down. Presumably she knew this and when questioned about this on the stand could have said so. The defence did make it clear they should not be read as confessions but just as indications of her distress.
Evans, Bohin and Marmerides did not know Letby's identity until after their review.

Beyond the question as to whether Baby C's collapse on day one of life was sinister as Evans initially supposed which might suggest another attacker at work on the ward the rest isn't suggestive of much.

It’s disingenuous if not dishonest to say no statistical evidence was presented at the trial. The whole investigation began with doctors of medicine giving statistical evidence to the police and claiming it was so unlikely that a woman must have been killing babies. That the spike in deaths was highly unlikely to have an innocent explanation was a key part of the prosecution case in court.
I think one problem with the appeal is that if the jury have convicted you on the basis that you were not alone, nobody saw you do anything, several people don’t think you were even in the room and the only one who does has changed their story since their police interview then it is quite hard to find new exonerating evidence. The fact that the judge ruled that the precise mode of harm isn’t important makes this even more difficult. Dewi Evans has changed his mind on the feasibility of air down the nasogastric tube but that doesn’t seem to matter.
It may take an overhaul of the whole system and new legislation to get justice. You may well be right that she won’t get out alive. That doesn’t mean she’s guilty.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 22/10/2024 21:11

A case of this nature is incredibly difficult to defend, whether in the family courts or criminal court. Incompetence is a debatable issue. Since the 1990s furore sparked by Roy Meadows, the pool of expert witnesses willing to challenge peers on the prosecution side has dwindled to the dimension of a puddle.

Yes, Meadows was a prosecution witness and along with David Southall were rightly discredited for their sheer hubris leading to notable miscarriages of justice, however, there is a persistence in faith in prosecution witnesses who have built careers on their work developing hypotheses that would seem to streamline complex medical cases that make it to court.

It is interesting to discover that Evans background sees him working contentious cases with input from both Meadows and Southall, I believe. From the beginning there was always the question of why LL would do what she has been accused of, and the persistent implication of "attention seeking" in the vein of FII. Yet this was never explicitly stated nor explored.

The whole investigation was focused on the idea that there MUST be an explanation for the "unexplained" collapses and deaths, despite adequate explanations being accepted at post mortem. And LL appears to fit the bill.

The simplification of the deaths down to various methods yet ruling out so many potential contributory factors would have made it incredibly difficult to bring in enough witnesses to challenge these confident yet apparently novel assertions, that's if one could find enough willing to testify. The trial might have doubled in length and complexity, and I highly doubt the Treasury would have written a blank cheque for Legal Aid. Expert witnesses do not come cheap.

Perhaps the decision not to call Hall was because LL actually had enough faith in Myers to undermine the case and get it thrown out. Perhaps as a KC his previous experience made him confident that opinion and hypothesis and character assassination was not enough to secure a conviction. I wonder if any if his previous cases had been medically complex.

Whatever the reasoning, it obviously backfired for LL.

In terms of over turning the convictions I do wonder if there us a very long con in the works. The public interest and the attention of prominent figures in relevant fields raising the alarm so swiftly after the trial is unprecedented and will have to be addressed somehow or else faith in the justice system will reach a critically low level. Along with health care provision for the most vulnerable in general.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case are perceived to be on either side, they must be addressed somehow.

sunshine244 · 22/10/2024 21:28

Mirabai · 22/10/2024 20:21

Myers is an experienced KC but he was working with a small scale local solicitor with no track record of high profile murder trials or cases with complex scientific evidence.

Myers can only work with the case he is presented with by the solicitor.

However, he is responsible for court strategy and he will have been responsible for the failure to call their medical witnesses and their statistician, such as they were, or at least advising LL not to call them.

The primary failure of the defence team in the aggregate - was the failure to the present a full narrative aka the truth to counter the prosecution - of the under-resourced, underfunded unit, with dodgy plumbing and infected water supply, with insufficient consultant cover, suboptimal care resulting in failure to diagnose and effectively treat the babies in their care with tragic consequences.

To that end they needed to call the writers of the RCPCH report, Drs Hawdon and McPartland, the original pathologists, neonatologists, microbiologist, epidemiologists, statisticians, Shoo Lee and other experts in air embolisms, paediatric endocrinologists, Kathryn de Beger and forensic psychologists etc. Of course nurse colleagues would have been ideal too but we understand they were warned off testifying by the hospital.

Had that occurred, this trial would have been very different and potentially a very different outcome.

David Allen Green, the well known legal writer posed the question: what should happen when a defence team for reasons good or bad, fails to call expert witnesses. Adam King the renown criminal barrister has set out reasons why there may be a miscarriage of justice in this case.

If you talk to lawyers there more questions than answers as to what happened with the defence.

There was at least one nurse who wanted to testify for LL but was warned not to.

Would that sort of issue be sufficient to allow an appeal? It doesn't seem fair if witnesses are prevented from testifying for one side only.

kkloo · 22/10/2024 21:33

Firefly1987 · 22/10/2024 20:27

You think that's highly unlikely yet think it's completely believable that a very experienced KC just simply dropped the ball...

Yes I think it's more likely that he dropped the ball than the idea that he wanted to call an expert witness and she said nah.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 22/10/2024 21:37

And today's offering from the Telegraph:

https://archive.is/g7klF

ShamblesRock · 22/10/2024 23:20

That is truly shocking. I think by the end this inquiry we leave us with more questions than answers.

MissMoneyFairy · 23/10/2024 10:49

ShamblesRock · 22/10/2024 23:20

That is truly shocking. I think by the end this inquiry we leave us with more questions than answers.

You're right, interested to know what "clinical ommissions" took place and by who.

GossIsAGit · 23/10/2024 20:56

sunshine244 · 22/10/2024 21:28

There was at least one nurse who wanted to testify for LL but was warned not to.

Would that sort of issue be sufficient to allow an appeal? It doesn't seem fair if witnesses are prevented from testifying for one side only.

You aren’t the first to think about this angle.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=jT05WfEWK9c

kkloo · 24/10/2024 03:22

LoremIpsumCici · 22/10/2024 17:16

Not meaning to interject, but it appears to me the grounds to appeal on the basis of new evidence doesn’t seem to be saying brand new evidence that no one had access to or did not exist, but rather includes evidence that was just not presented/raised at trial?

”b. The CCRC so consider:
(1) In the case of a conviction, verdict or finding because of an argument or evidence not raised in the proceedings which led to it..”

Why wouldn’t LL have grounds to appeal under this given what we know now from experts:

  • the door swipe data was incorrect
  • the CPS shift chart was incorrect and the statistical analysis was mathematically miscalculated
  • the air embolism skin discolouration was invalid
  • the X-ray evidence for one baby seemingly showing air along their spine was taken the day before LL could ever have been in contact with him
  • the insulin/c-peptide test is not reliable for forensics evidence and inadmissible as evidence of murder vs natural cause of death
  • the so called “confession” notes were directed by a therapist when LL was under extreme stress and wondered if she hadn’t somehow harmed the babies because ‘I’m not good enough”
  • the deaths/collapses referred to the police to investigate were cherry picked by doctors who acted as amateur investigators who had already concluded LL was guilty, which contaminated the investigation.

Yes, most of this was known at the time of the trial, but it seems that the requirement is only that the evidence or argument had not been raised…

Well there would have to be a good reason why it wasn't raised, such as inadequate defence.

If not then they'd be able try the 'no case to answer' approach and then have another shot bringing in experts.

GossIsAGit · 24/10/2024 07:14

Dewi Evans is now claiming the cause of death for all 7 murder convictions was air injected into the bloodstream according to Private Eye.

OrangeGreens · 24/10/2024 09:41

GossIsAGit · 24/10/2024 07:14

Dewi Evans is now claiming the cause of death for all 7 murder convictions was air injected into the bloodstream according to Private Eye.

What about the insulin cases?

GossIsAGit · 24/10/2024 09:53

OrangeGreens · 24/10/2024 09:41

What about the insulin cases?

He thinks the tests were reliable (not really his area of expertise - even less than neonatology). Evans has also been talking to the Sun about everything.
https://archive.is/82Xrz

MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/10/2024 10:20

I think the wheels are coming off the Dewi Evans bus because it has also been reported that the police have asked him to stop talking about Baby C. It would seem he is unfamiliar with two pertinent phrases - "discretion is the better part of valour" and "empty vessels make the most noise". Of course one could claim that these could apply to anyone offering opinions on this case however, I think motivation and context are the important factors here.

Memyaelf · 24/10/2024 11:31

MistressoftheDarkSide · 21/10/2024 19:40

If that is the case then every person involved with her training and oversight should be fired and prosecuted.

Every time an "unexpected" collapse or death occurs in any hospital, murder should be the first consideration, and an investigation should immediately be carried out. Any nurse or doctor who was the last to interact should be arrested and charged.

No nurse or doctor should ever be allowed to work one on one with any patient.

No one is safe. Ever.

(Yes, deliberately hyperbolic because this whole case is becoming farcical in the extreme.)

Working one to one with every patient would require double the staffing and expense, which for the uk is via your tax’s to the government. Up go taxes, down goes inflation.. up go what the UK borrows and then taxes go up again! It’s infeasible. There is also no ‘pool’ of nurses to employ even if extra staffing was agreed. Generally right now, there is one to one on ITU, 3 to one in high dependency and 7 to one on wards. Leadership and better control and detection is the key given these circumstances.

BringMeTea · 24/10/2024 14:04

Good news.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/10/2024 14:08

If you say so 🙄

OrangeGreens · 24/10/2024 14:44

I think the baby K case was always going to be tricky because there is no way really for there to be any new evidence. Isn’t that entire case based on one doctor’s eyewitness testimony? So media bias was probably the only route they could take and I do think that was always a long shot because you could easily argue that about her first trial, or any high-profile case.

Quitelikeit · 24/10/2024 14:58

Myers will probably be relieved this is over

kkloo · 24/10/2024 16:13

OrangeGreens · 24/10/2024 09:41

What about the insulin cases?

Still believes them and thinks Alder Hey were incorrect with the diagnosis of hyperinsulinism for the third baby.

kkloo · 24/10/2024 17:55

Well that was fully expected.
At least no appeal means no reporting restrictions.

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