To think my flexible working request will not unreasonable?

[NameChangedOct]

Hello! I returned from maternity leave 3 months ago. I’m full time, but had accrued a LOT of annual leave so have been using this to take every Friday off for the rest of the year, essentially working a 4 day week. From January I was hoping to request a permanent change, 4 days for 80% pay.

However, my manager is saying it’s really difficult for the team/business under my current working arrangement and may not be sustainable permanently. I do appreciate that the work I do comes in (with little notice) as tasks/mini-projects that take 2-3 days and are quite time sensitive. So usually I will start something on a Thursday and unable to finish it, I have to hand it over to a colleague (which I think is fine, only slightly less efficient, or if the colleague can’t get to it then it waits until Monday which delays the output beyond our usual times, but it’s hardly life or death). Everyone else on my team works full time, even those with young kids.

I’ve not put a formal request in but AIBU thinking the above is not a good enough reason for them to refuse this as a legal right as a parent.

i really love my job, colleagues and flexibility (I can WFH), but I also need a day off to spend with my little one.

You having to work the same schedule as your colleagues isn't the end of the world either.

Being a parent doesn't give you special rights.

Your manager is telling you it’s not working. I imagine this is in part because the team are telling the manager it’s not working and/or clients are telling them.

Given you are having a three month trial of the working pattern you’d be asking for, I would say you have no chance of having the flexi working request approved.

I think you have to accept that some jobs are very possible part time and others are much harder. It sounds like cover rather than hours per se is important for the OPs role.

I started off doing 3 days a week Tuesday- Thursday and it was not really workable - too much time would pass from the Thursday to Tuesday and I’d end up doing work on a non-working day. I then moved to a 4 day week with a Monday off and it worked really well. Fridays I could get my head down when it was often quieter and complete stuff. I found that things often escalated on a Thursday and being away on a Friday would have been an issue. I also found that my team could get on with stuff on Monday and have things ready for me to look at on Tuesday. I really liked that pattern. In my current role I work full time but do compressed hours to do a 9 day fortnight with every other Friday off and that works well.

I would personally never go back to a full time Monday to Friday but accept that means there are some jobs I cant do well and wouldn’t apply for them.

In the OPs case, she may have more luck looking at a job share arrangement as it sounds like cover is important for business need. I suspect compressing wouldn’t work that well.

My husband and I have the same arrangement, and I do compressed hours (90% over 4 days). Full time compressed is very hard on the employee I think, but 90% was a good compromise for my manager and myself.

Some ideas to explore:

• find a nursery or other childcare setting that open earlier. I do drop off at 7:30am to be at work at 8 if I WFH, 8:30 if I have to commute

• if I have to do pickup from the office, so leave earlier, we find a way with my husband to make up for those hours during the week. For instance he will do drop off one days and his day start later. My work is flexible enough that as long as the task is completed on time, they don't really care when I do it

• some of my colleagues on compressed hours will work early morning/later evening for an hour. So usually after the kids go to bed.

Another option, that actually came from one of our director, is that she gets a nanny/babysitter on Fridays to make up for those few hours. So officially she does 100% over 4.5 days, but at least her child has a routine at home on Fridays (half with nanny, half with her mum).

Nope.

Criminal cases require proof. (Beyond reasonable doubt.)

Employment cases require balance of probability. Evidence can be helpful (you’ll note the OP’s own evidence that work is being delayed and others are having additional workload to accommodate her) but proof isn’t an element of employment matters.

No idea what your involvement is, but as a fully qualified and chartered HR professional of many many years, I have an unbeaten record of tribunals, and a lot of cases that didn’t get to that point because the above was explained to employees by their legal/union reps and they saw sense.

whatever crusade you’re on it appears to be successful enough brute force rather than an understanding of employment law.

The business reasons are strong even in this one post

A one day delay on the tasks I pick up isn’t the end of the world

Not in your biased opinion, but it is in your companies opinion

It wouldn’t be the same client each time and most are understanding

Impacting quality of service to clients is a valid business risk

Delays happen for other reasons too - sickness, too much work at once

You working 4 days a week would compound these issues

You have the legal right to request, they have the legal right to reject and it sounds like from your own comments and description of your type of work they have strong grounds.

If you want flexible working you will need to come up with a proposal that does not make work late, impact some clients, impact colleagues significantly or increase any delays further. It might mean you don't get exactly what you would like.

Not ideal but could you do 2 half days maybe Monday and Friday? Work in the mornings tackle/finish any thing urgent on those mornings. Then pick up child at lunch from Nursey and have afternoons to do classes/ activities etc

But flexi working isn’t the same as reducing to 0.8hrs is it? If OP asked for flexible hours, WFH, so that she do her full 5 day week I’s agree that her employer would find it hard to deny.

But it may be there is an element of her job that can only be done in the office, that she and colleagues provide lunch time cover so the office/phones are physically manned from 9-5 (or whatever the hours are) - this may be causing issues on Fridays that they are muddling through with significant stress for the short-term in the knowledge she will be back soon.

They may have a folder full of angry emails from clients pissed off about delays that they are fielding on the ‘it’s only temporary’ basis (ie evidence that it is adversely impacting clients); they may have HR files recording colleagues registering stress due to unfair workload expectations on Fridays that have been advised to please try and suck it up as it’s only 3 more months… for all we know there is plenty of evidence that OP’s current work practices (which even she openly states leads to delays or colleagues picking up her slack) are negatively impacting the business. The fact that deadlines are not being met will be recorded… and be evidence. Loss of ‘client goodwill’ is an intangible asset that is as significant as bottom line profit.

Without knowing the precise nature of the business we cannot know what the impact is, but I’d guess there is likely plenty of evidence available (or easily accessible with a quick, HR-lead survey of colleagues work output/efficiency/well-being) that would shore up their case.

Unfortunately it does look like they are putting the feelers out early about not agreeing to this arrangement long term.

Pre covid I requested part time hours at my old job and gave lots of different options for how it could work. Ultimately they said it was full time or nothing. I had to make a decision if I valued the job more than time with my very young child. I decided to let the job go and found a part time role pretty quicker which suited my needs better (albeit in a different sector to my previous role). I would say that even if your company did approve your flexible working request, they do not sound particularly supportive of working parents and I’d question how happy you would be in the long term at this company.

Crusade? Nice one ... I guess. I'm answering posts when other posters have replied to me. My opinion and experience is as valid as everyone else's on this thread, and is based on my 20yr experience of working with HR teams. It is exceptionally seldom flexi working – especially one asking for 4 days a week – has be legitimately refused if it is escalated within the companies I've worked for.

My advice is solely to OP, so it's really none of my concern what you post.

Also about remote working 😆.

I work full time now but a few jobs ago I worked 4 days for 80percent pay and did a full time job (no bit of my work were given to anyone else).

It was fine as lots of people took annual leave on Fridays anyway and lots of the people we dealt with were less available on Fridays as well.

Before my DC started school I used to work 4 days with Wednesdays off. I really liked that as I was only ever one more day away from a day off with them. It also worked well for my employer. Definitely worth asking but being flexible on the day of the week. And yes as others have mentioned point them in the direction of the Government plans.

Ps - I get very weary of all the flame throwing at mums returning to work and requesting reduced hours.

But flexi working isn’t the same as reducing to 0.8hrs is it? But it comes under the remit of requesting flexi so will be treated the same.

There are a lot of 'may be's here – there may be a phone manning situation, there may be emails from angry clients. Are there? Only the OP and her boss can tell us, I agree.

or easily accessible with a quick, HR-lead survey of colleagues work output/efficiency/well-being) that would shore up their case
It helps the case, for sure, but we have been asked before, from internal and external HR professionals to demonstrate that we cannot recruit for a job share situation. And that involved putting out an advert and showing lack of applications or refusals of the position on the basis of pay.

When I have been in the position where it is escalated, HR teams have really thrown everything except the kitchen sink at the refusal.

I think asking them about having a different day off is the best option. If you had Wednesdays off you could complete your work without passing it onto someone else.

I simply boggle at the lack of imagination in this thread. It really is bootlicking. Throwing working mums under the bus in the name of corporate hegemony.

Have you read The Cost of Sexism by Linda Scott? Very interesting and touches on the inflexibility of the workplace when it comes to mums.

YANBU wanting flexible working, however if I was regularly picking up urgent requests for someone else in a Friday this would annoy me.

Could you look for a role where flexible working is possible or is this time sensitive issue common in your industry?

A Wednesday is a great day off. You only need to prep for 2 day chunks and can be good for toddler to have a more chilled day midweek.
You’ve given good business reasons for refusal.
Manager needs to ensure staffing to get work done in timely fashion. Fridays are also popular for holiday requests. If say there’s 3 of you who does the work it’s a lot of pressure on one person when other is on annual leave and you are not working.

If they've had issues like you mentioned with you being off on Fridays and you go in saying you want to cut to 80% with every Friday off going forward they'll be more likely to say no I reckon, but if you're flexible about which day you could drop they'd maybe give more consideration.

I guess shorter hours every day would be an alternative, but understand that comes with a higher childcare bill!

I think had OP stated that she’d been taking Friday off as annual leave for the last 3m and that it was all positive she would have been drowned in support. Ie had she said that there had been no impact on her colleagues, that she’d still been able to meet deadlines without delaying output, had developed excellent communication with clients to manage deadlines/expectation and was reassured that there was no impact on their businesses as well as the one she worked for, everyone here would have said - fab, good luck, am sure you’ll be successful.

That wasn’t what she said, though, was it?

It’s not lack of imagination or working-parent bashing when we are pointing out that she is dismissive of the impact of other working parent colleagues. It’s stating that she is being self-centric and could care less about the negative impacts that she herself outlines.

I was going to suggest changing the day you are off. I would rather have had a Friday off when I worked but everyone takes those off so Mondays are sometimes better

This is not indicative of her 0.8 request being unreasonable though, this is indicative of management being unwilling to work around it.

People view the way teams and businesses are structured as universal constants, when that simply isn't the case. A decent management would be able to work out how to work around an 8 hour reduction in the overall available resource. In most cases, it's not a matter of possibility, it's a matter of will. What they risk by refusing to work with OP is losing 40 manhours a week instead of just 8 when she leaves to go to a competitor who will actually do their job and work to make their resources work effectively.

To argue that this isn't possible, that there is simply no way for businesses to offer flexibility (which in OPs case may be taking some other day instead of Friday)? Well it's unimaginative bootlicking.

I genuinely cannot think of an industry where an 8 hour reduction in manhours is completely crippling to a business.

I was involved with supporting workers in all things as a trade union rep so was sort of on their side automatically. Your request is unreasonable as it has already proven to be bad for your workplace. Ask if you can drop any other day. If the mini projects take 2 to 3 days then a mid week day could be argued to chop up the days so you never have a 3 day chunk. I would imagine for business reasons they would consider a Monday.

You can request but as people have pointed out it’s not guaranteed and your workplace would be perfectly ok to say no. People often don’t understand requests like this at all.

I think the fact you’ve already tried it and they’re saying it’s not working actually gives them more evidence in their argument I’m afraid!

If you can switch days do that

But you are not working from home on Friday, you are with your baby., you would be doing a four day job. Nothing wrong with that but it is not full time?